Ax/hatchet/'hawk?

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LC, what kind of an edge can you put on that Estwing? Do you know its weight?

Whetrock, you focused on my primary reason for owning the VTAC: Self defense. I have one in my truck and fishing boat, although in all honesty it will probably be the second or third tool I would grab when needed. My disappointment is the difficulty of getting a good edge on the main cutting blade which I guess does relegate it to a defense tool. A friend who is retired LEO, when I showed it to him said " I would rather be shot than hit with that".
All that said, I am starting to recognize that there are other non-firearm tools which are as useful as my hawks. For a long time I have been a traditionalist in terms of self defense : concealed carry and a good knife. Upon reading some of the threads on THR, my thoughts concerning self defense are evolving toward a much broader concept of the term self defense and the tools for that purpose.

Thanks to everyone for your comments and advice

Jim
 
My question to the OP is "Where do you plan on using it?"

I was posting at the same time as you and missed this until I hit submit.

Anyway, as I mentioned above I bought my hawks as back up defense tools.
I live in a rural setting and can barely see my neighbor and I like that a lot.
I have lived this way for 15 years and have developed a strong sense of self reliance. My wife and I spend most of our time alone and outside caring for our place. By that I don't mean gardening, rather clearing brush, cutting down dead trees to burn the next winter, clearing pond banks and such.
When I used the term "bug out kit" I meant it to be my go to necessities at a time of emergency.
 
I guess does relegate it to a defense tool.
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Not necessarily. As a blunt instrument that will focus the impact into that smaller area it is capable of causing serious injuries. Then smashing instead of chopping. If you were planning on chopping with it, it just won't deliver for you because of the very wide edge and possibly the materials.
 
Personally I'd want something with a lot more power and cutting surface. If you go back in history and look at actual combat axes, used in actual combat, they tended to maximize blade area and leverage. Blades were swept down, as with beard axes, or up, as with Francisca, or both up and down. Steel was stretched as far as possible to make as much cutting surface as possible. It was kept thin, too.

With tactical hawks, they almost seem to be closer to war hammers than a battle axe. And those were made for punching through heavy steel and padded armor so they're of questionable utility now.

And as much as I love my G-B's, they are indeed balanced and designed for wood chopping and particular carpentry chores. The steel is thick and heavy, with typically wedge-profile blades. They'd inflict a nasty wound, but are not balanced for speed of recovery and would also tend to get wedged in any obstacle they hit.

To put it buntly, if you are fighting for your life with an axe, you will want something that will deliver as big a flesh wound as possible in the first stroke while leaving momentum for a followup stroke. Not something that will punch in and stick. It should be able to deliver nasty wounds whether swung, stabbed, slashed or sat upon. Google around for actual historical combat axes from the days when they were used for that.

601px-Dane_Axe.jpg
 
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The Vietnam 'hawk was more of a demolition tool/weapon than a edged weapon. They weren't expected to take a shaving edge.
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While many of the modern interperetations of the "tactical" tomahawk are intended more as breaching tools or heavy utility blades than CQC weapons, every account I have read about Peter LaGana's creation of the original Vietnam Tomahawk was that it was designed specifically for use as a weapon.

Now, whether they could actually take a sharp edge or not, I couldn't say. ;)
 
Whetrock, you focused on my primary reason for owning the VTAC: Self defense. I have one in my truck and fishing boat, although in all honesty it will probably be the second or third tool I would grab when needed. My disappointment is the difficulty of getting a good edge on the main cutting blade which I guess does relegate it to a defense tool. A friend who is retired LEO, when I showed it to him said " I would rather be shot than hit with that".
All that said, I am starting to recognize that there are other non-firearm tools which are as useful as my hawks. For a long time I have been a traditionalist in terms of self defense : concealed carry and a good knife. Upon reading some of the threads on THR, my thoughts concerning self defense are evolving toward a much broader concept of the term self defense and the tools for that purpose.
Click to expand...

I hear ya while I'm not a fan of edged weapons for defensive purposes by any means I understand their usefulness in certain situations were a firearm may be prohibited. If I lived in an anti-gun state or country and was in need of a defensive arm of some sort I'd take a harder look at hawks and probably keep one handy. With proper training they can be very effective from what I understand. Also they can go under the radar as a tool if found in your vehicle. I keep a Machete in my truck as a tool but it could suffice as a weapon if the need arise but I'd rather not go there, but it doesn't hurt to have options. I believe my Vtac was made out of 1060 rather than O1 by the way. If your on a budget or don't want to invest a whole lot in a tomahawk Cold Steel makes a variety of patterns in 1055 carbon at a reasonable price.
 
Defensive, I'd rather not have a tomahawk and have a longish blade instead.
You're looking for something you can pick up and use in a crisis. A tomahawk requires the establishment and maintenance of a perishable skillset. If you don't learn to use it well and maintain that, you can turn a nice swing into a glancing blow, then you're off balance (weight forward) and a bad guy gets a nice open shot at you.
Just my 2 cents.
 
That is some great advice. The dynamics of a miss or poor hit. I haven't thought that though. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Coincidentally, I just bought a Kabar 1248.
 
Nem, I'll post up as soon as I receive it. Price wise vs the others discussed it was a lay up. We shall see. Probably should have it in a week. $54 shipped. I think I did ok??
Also just bought a Kellam Puukko on Ebay. Nice looking knife
 
I'll echo that also. I wanna see a review of your Ka-Bar Cutlass as well(if it's no problem). While some may turn their nose up at them, Ka-Bar's imported offerings are of excellent quality and compare quite nicely to their domestic knives IMO. It should prove to be an excellent "camp knife" and handle a wide array of tasks quite well. I think you'll enjoy it. The Kellam you mentioned is also a fine knife as well and a fine example of scandinvaian cultery as far as I'm concerned.
 
Very interesting realization today. As I have mentioned I have two VTAC hawks. My issue was the difficulty of getting a good edge on the main cutting blade. Well, last night I got out my second one and did some work with stones. Surprisingly, I got a good edge on it with a reasonable effort. So today I went to my wood pile and did some testing against my 18" blade Ontario machete that I have recently "restored". If I were to score the outcome on a scale of 1 to 10 (chopping effectiveness) I would rate the Ontario an 8 and the VTAC a 6.5. I cut both flexible, brush cutting type of stuff, and some 4"+/- logs.
My question is why the difference in the two hawks? I probably bought them 5years apart. In a pinch the second would be a decent chopping/cutting tool while the other I would score as a 4.5 out of 10. That much difference in QC and materials. Wonder how I can research that?
 
Received the Kabar 1248 today and headed to the wood pile. Nice Kydex sheath with leather closing straps, belt loop and sheath back that rests against your leg.
At the wood pile I did some chopping and batoning. While chopping it felt like the handle was slightly too short. This impacted the balance as my hand was off the end of the handle. I'll try a firmer grip next time out. I wasn't limp handing it. I was holding it with a hammer-type grip. Some flexibility to cushion the impact. It may also be due to the shape of the grip which has a swell and curve. It is well thought out. I just wasn't accustomed to the shape. The more I look at it I see how it is intended to actually enhance your grip. The grip material is great
Batoning gets an A+. Very, very sharp and I used a small round log as the driver. Cut half way through a 6" log very quickly.
I am very glad I made this purchase. I will need to try some different gripping techniques but for the price I'd buy another and another and..........
 
Update: I have a locust tree down on the back part of my place. I decided to harvest some branches for "sticks". The 1248 is a cutter. As mentioned in another thread, a few strikes and I am cutting through 2-4" branches. I am still using it to clean the branches of bark but it is getting trumped by my BK 7. Anyone looking for that size knife should take a hard look at the BK 7. I now have three Ka Bar knives, two American made. The balance of the BK 7 is outstanding...
Disclaimer: I do not own Cutco stock (parent company of Ka Bar:D)

I also found some nice tan micarta slabs for the BK 7. Bling, bling.
Seriously, they do look good
 
For those looking at the hawk/hatchet/axe as a weapon:

This came up in the epic "Short Sticks" thread, and it closely resembles hawk techniques I've been taught. Utterly brutal with a hawk:
http://www.gutterfighting.org/coldsteel.html

With a hawk, pulling it out of the belt means that you are usually choked right by the head. The haft along your forearm is excellent for blocking with. The beard, if you have one, will hook hands, knees, necks and is an excellent pain compliance tool. Bludgeoning with the eye is a hell of a lot better than a hammerfist. Putting a second hand on the haft (if it's long enough) makes thrusts with the eye or the haft very effective.

All of those techniques are very close measure, can be done in tight spaces, and I think they are easier than trying to control a hawk held in a woodcutting position. The nice thing, of course, is that you can always bump the end of the haft against part of your body and push the hawk further out from your hand for a strong chop when you have more room/time.

I bring this up because (a) it's a cool set of techniques and (b) a mid-sized axe/hatchet (18"+) is as well or better adapted for it than a lot of the "Tactical Hawks" out there.

The shape of the haft is important. On a tactical type, you want the grip scales to come all the way up to the head. On an axe/hatchet, you don't want the haft to be too dramatically wiggly (along it's length) or too flat near the head (in section). This example is bad: http://work949.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/hatchet.jpg

So, my humble suggestion is to get a tool that actually cuts wood (for 99.99% of use) and fight with it like it's a stick with a sharp bit on one end (the other 0.01% of use). If things are really bad, knock your enemy about a bit and THEN split his head in two like Robert the Bruce did to my ancestor at Bannockburn. The real tool will probably do a better job of that, too!
 
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