AZ Concealed Carry Primer

[lambertiana]

I will be spending some time in the Tempe area and would like a simple run down of AZ concealed carry laws. I looked some regulations up and some of it seems confusing to me.

I have a California concealed carry permit, and it looks like AZ has reciprocity but does not require a permit for concealed carry. I just need to know what restrictions are currently being interpreted:

Where can I carry, where can I not carry? I will be doing some traveling and some tourist things (not sure of the itinerary at this point, but it may include such things as state parks, too).

What about restaurants that serve alcohol? What are the sign posting requirements for businesses that do not want concealed carry on their property? Storage in a vehicle in parking lots of such businesses?

One thing that confuses me is that there seems to be a difference in restrictions for those who actually possess a valid permit. Is this true?

What about any contact with law enforcement? Am I required to notify law enforcement that I am carrying?

Any hints or suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[Frank Ettin]

A good first stop for summary information should be handgunlaw.us.

...What about restaurants that serve alcohol?...

The rule in Arizona is that if you have a CHL recognized by Arizona you may carry concealed in restaurants which serve alcohol, or bars, as long as (1) they aren't properly posted; and (2) you don't consume alcohol.

According to handgunlaw.us, Arizona [strike]doesn't[/strike] does recognize a California CHL, [strike] so you must leave your gun in the car if you visit a bar or a restaurant which serves alcohol[/strike].

...One thing that confuses me is that there seems to be a difference in restrictions for those who actually possess a valid permit. Is this true?...

Yes, that's true. See the example outlined above.

...Any hints or suggestions would be appreciated.

Get an Arizona CHL. It's available to non-residents, can be acquired fairly easily by mail and is recognized by a bunch of States.

Note that under the federal Gun Free School Zone law, one may lawfully possess a loaded gun within 1,000 feet of a school only with a CHL issued by the State in which the school is located.

 

[lambertiana]

Frank -

Handgunlaw indicates that AZ recognizes the CA permit, as does the wording on the AZ website:

http://www.azdps.gov/Services/Concealed_Weapons/Reciprocity/

Part of my confusion is the wording on the AZ website regarding the carry in locations with posted signs:

http://www.azdps.gov/Links/ARS/?l=4/00229.htm

In C(2)(b) it states that an affirmative defense to a violation of the requirement to obey the posted signs is if the permit holder is not a resident of AZ.

Just what does that mean in practical application?

 

[Frank Ettin]

Handgunlaw indicates that AZ recognizes the CA permit, as does the wording on the AZ website:...

You're correct. I mis-read handgunlaw.us Sorry. Once again I'm reminded that there are some things I shouldn't try to do before I've had my coffee.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Get an Arizona CHL. It's available to non-residents, can be acquired fairly easily by mail and is recognized by a bunch of States.

I just checked into this as I will be spending time in AZ this winter. Apparently AZ is a very good CHL to have if you travel in the midwest and the rocky mountain states. I was looking into getting one in Utah but they require a course. The AZ requirements state that your DD-214 discharge is adequate so no course if you have that. Also NM doesn't accept Utah's permit where they do accept AZ's permit. AZ permit for me.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Travel....

The 2014 summer touring season seems to be over but....

If you do a lot of travel I highly suggest a 2014 www.gunlawguide.com .
Take it with you for a research/ref material.
As posted, www.handgunlaw.us is helpful.
Id also suggest looking into a legal support plan or extra legal defense like Second Call or www.CCWsafe.com . Being armed but in a community you are not aware of or needing a lawyer after a critical incident can be rough. If you don't already have a lawyer, look into a legal defense policy. I plan to sign up for CCWSafe.com($99.00/year) ASAP.

Stay safe & happy trails....

 

[Twiki357]

Arizona recognizes ALL states concealed carry permits. AZ is also a Constitutional carry state (No permit required), but a permit does have its benefits. Restrictions are primarily government buildings and any place that is posted as prohibited. The “No Firearms” postings carry the same penalty as postings of “No shoes, No shirt, No service.” In other words, they can tell you to leave and if you don’t, the violation is trespass.

You can carry in any place that serves alcohol as long as it’s not posted and you do not consume alcohol.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...The “No Firearms” postings carry the same penalty as postings of “No shoes, No shirt, No service.” In other words, they can tell you to leave and if you don’t, the violation is trespass....

That is not necessarily accurate.

The Arizona criminal trespass statute, ARS 13-1502 reads (emphasis added):

13-1502. Criminal trespass in the third degree; classification

A. A person commits criminal trespass in the third degree by:

1. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on any real property after a reasonable request to leave by the owner or any other person having lawful control over such property, or reasonable notice prohibiting entry.

2. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on the right-of-way for tracks, or the storage or switching yards or rolling stock of a railroad company.​

B. Criminal trespass in the third degree is a class 3 misdemeanor.​

Notice that it is criminal trespass in Arizona not only when one stays after being asked to leave. It is also criminal trespass to enter if one is on notice that entry is prohibited.

The question therefore becomes whether a "no guns" sign on private property is reasonable notice prohibiting entry by one carrying a gun. If an Arizona court would say, or has said, that it is, a "no guns" sign indeed has the force of law.

Certainly on the face of things it looks like a "no gun" sign could well be considered reasonable notice that entry to the premises with a gun is prohibited.

Twiki357, if you still contend that a "no guns" sign doesn't have the force of law in Arizona, cite an Arizona court decision so ruling.

...You can carry in any place that serves alcohol as long as it’s not posted and you do not consume alcohol.

Not exactly right. When last I looked at the issue one must also have a valid permit and carry concealed. See ARS 4-244 (emphasis added) --

It is unlawful:
.....

29. For any person other than a peace officer or a member of a sheriff's volunteer posse while on duty who has received firearms training that is approved by the Arizona peace officer standards and training board, the licensee or an employee of the licensee acting with the permission of the licensee to be in possession of a firearm while on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer. This paragraph shall not be construed to include a situation in which a person is on licensed premises for a limited time in order to seek emergency aid and such person does not buy, receive, consume or possess spirituous liquor. This paragraph shall not apply to:

(a) Hotel or motel guest room accommodations.

(b) The exhibition or display of a firearm in conjunction with a meeting, show, class or similar event.

(c) A person with a permit issued pursuant to section 13-3112 who carries a concealed handgun on the licensed premises of any on-sale retailer that has not posted a notice pursuant to section 4-229.

30. For a licensee or employee to knowingly permit a person in possession of a firearm other than a peace officer or a member of a sheriff's volunteer posse while on duty who has received firearms training that is approved by the Arizona peace officer standards and training board, the licensee or an employee of the licensee acting with the permission of the licensee to remain on the licensed premises or to serve, sell or furnish spirituous liquor to a person in possession of a firearm while on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer. It shall be a defense to action under this paragraph if the licensee or employee requested assistance of a peace officer to remove such person. This paragraph shall not apply to:

(a) Hotel or motel guest room accommodations.

(b) The exhibition or display of a firearm in conjunction with a meeting, show, class or similar event.

(c) A person with a permit issued pursuant to section 13-3112 who carries a concealed handgun on the licensed premises of any on-sale retailer that has not posted a notice pursuant to section 4-229....

 

[Twiki357]

Frank, let me preface this by saying that there are many State statutes that are rarely used in criminal actions. In many cases because they are vague or because there are somewhat contradictory statutes, that Arizona has an abundance of.

“The Arizona criminal trespass statute, ARS 13-1502 reads (emphasis added):
1. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on any real property after a reasonable request to leave by the owner or any other person having lawful control over such property, or reasonable notice prohibiting entry.”

However section 4-229 requires specific notice format and provides exceptions, one of which is an affirmative defense for a person who is “not a resident of this state” (Addresses the OP’s question) or to determine if there is a no firearms posting. (And, yes, the requirement for it to be posted inside by the liquor license is stupid.)

This brings into question “could well be considered reasonable notice that entry to the premises with a gun is prohibited.” I’m not saying right or wrong, just saying.

4-229. Licenses; handguns; posting of notice
A. A person may carry a concealed handgun on the premises of a licensee who is an on-sale retailer unless the licensee posts a sign that clearly prohibits the possession of weapons on the licensed premises. The sign shall conform to the following requirements:
1. Be posted in a conspicuous location accessible to the general public and immediately adjacent to the liquor license posted on the licensed premises.
2. Contain a pictogram that shows a firearm within a red circle and a diagonal red line across the firearm.
3. Contain the words, "no firearms allowed pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229".
B. A person shall not carry a firearm on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer if the licensee has posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section.
C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:
1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section before the violation.
2. Any one or more of the following apply:
(a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down.
(b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.
(c) The licensee had posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section not more than thirty days before the violation.
F. This section does not prohibit a person who possesses a handgun from entering the licensed premises for a limited time for the specific purpose of either:
1. Seeking emergency aid.
2. Determining whether a sign has been posted pursuant to subsection A of this section.

The same signage format requirements also apply to retailers who do not sell liquor (Or least used to since I can’t seem to find it now.) It may have been replaced with 30. (c) in your quote. "A person with a permit issued pursuant to section 13-3112 who carries a concealed handgun on the licensed premises of any on-sale retailer that has not posted a notice pursuant to section 4-229...."

“Twiki357, if you still contend that a "no guns" sign doesn't have the force of law in Arizona, cite an Arizona court decision so ruling.”

Unfortunately, since I’m not a lawyer, I don’t know one way or the other and I don't have the expertise to research it. I do know that cases I’m aware of that involved a firearm were prosecuted for more serious felony charges with non-firearm specific general trespass add-ons if applicable.

And in conclusion, any sign that does not meet the requirements of 4-229 falls into the “no shirt, no shoes” category.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Frank, let me preface this by saying that there are many State statutes that are rarely used in criminal actions. In many cases because they are vague or because there are somewhat contradictory statutes, that Arizona has an abundance of....

Really? What statutes? You have some evidence of this?

The same signage format requirements also apply to retailers who do not sell liquor (Or least used to since I can’t seem to find it now.)...."

You can't find it because it doesn't exist. 4-229 applies only to retailers selling alcohol for consumption on premises.

...Unfortunately, since I’m not a lawyer, I don’t know one way or the other and I don't have the expertise to research it....

Then please don't post bad information and possibly get people into trouble.

...any sign that does not meet the requirements of 4-229 falls into the “no shirt, no shoes” category...

Phooey. You admit that you can't cite any legal authority supporting your claim. 4-229, which you quoted, applies only to establishments selling alcoholic beverages for consumption on premises (and, among other things, is found in the part of the Arizona statutes dealing with the licensing and operations of establishments selling alcoholic beverages).

I've cited the Arizona criminal trespass statute.

It appears that you don't know what you're talking about so please don't put people at risk by circulating bad information.

 

[danez71]

The 4-229 sign only applies to alcohol places. Other businesses can use other signs.

Signage have force of law? I think its semantics.

Scenario: Grocery shopping at a posted store and you flash while CCing, employee calls cops:

Cops come and see you arguing with the store employee about your 'Rights' and AZ is a Constitutional State and generally acting like a jack-hole.... You're likely getting a ticket or a ride downtown.

Cops come and they see you just casually shopping and minding your own business. They're more than likely going to determine that you didn't see the sign, point out that its posted, and tell you pay more attention and leave.


Fairly simple, really.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Signage have force of law? I think its semantics.

Scenario: Grocery shopping at a posted store and you flash while CCing, employee calls cops:

Cops come and see you arguing with the store employee about your 'Rights' and AZ is a Constitutional State and generally acting like a jack-hole.... You're likely getting a ticket or a ride downtown.

Cops come and they see you just casually shopping and minding your own business. They're more than likely going to determine that you didn't see the sign, point out that its posted, and tell you pay more attention and leave....

Well maybe, or maybe not. There's no sure way to predict.

The criminal trespass law is what it is. How things might play out in a given situation will depend on a variety of factors -- including the attitude of the business. Positing a hypothetical with a happy ending doesn't make it true.

The point is that carrying a gun into private property posted "no guns" is criminal trespass at the moment of entry -- not just if you're asked to leave and refuse.

 

[danez71]

That's very true Frank.


I think sometimes people play the game of active vs passive notification (does the law say it matters?) and "I didn't knowingly enter" "Prove a I knowingly entered".

I think the following are some of the sources of those that are trying to come up with when ask to provide statutes.

http://www.azdps.gov/Services/Concealed_Weapons/Questions/#30

Q: I entered a private business with my concealed handgun and CCW permit. The business did not have any signs posted prohibiting weapons. Shortly thereafter, an employee approached me and said they do not allow firearms in their business and I must take the gun off the premises. Can they do that?
A: Yes. Arizona law permits private business owners (or their designates) to prohibit weapons from being brought onto their property, whether signs are posted or not. Private businesses are typically non-government operated businesses such as grocery and department stores, convenience stores, laundromats, banks, office complexes, etc. Failure to obey the request can result in your arrest for trespassing. (ARS 13-1502 / ARS 13-1503)

13-1502. Criminal trespass in the third degree; classification

A. A person commits criminal trespass in the third degree by:

1. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on any real property after a reasonable request to leave by a law enforcement officer, the owner or any other person having lawful control over such property, or reasonable notice prohibiting entry.

2. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on the right-of-way for tracks, or the storage or switching yards or rolling stock of a railroad company.

B. Pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 1 of this section, a request to leave by a law enforcement officer acting at the request of the owner of the property or any other person having lawful control over the property has the same legal effect as a request made by the property owner or other person having lawful control of the property.

C. Criminal trespass in the third degree is a class 3 misdemeanor.




13-1503. Criminal trespass in the second degree; classification

A. A person commits criminal trespass in the second degree by knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully in or on any nonresidential structure or in any fenced commercial yard.

B. Criminal trespass in the second degree is a class 2 misdemeanor.

And

13-3102. Misconduct involving weapons; defenses; classification; definitions

(A)(10). Unless specifically authorized by law, entering any public establishment or attending any public event and carrying a deadly weapon on his person after a reasonable request by the operator of the establishment or the sponsor of the event or the sponsor's agent to remove his weapon and place it in the custody of the operator of the establishment or the sponsor of the event for temporary and secure storage of the weapon pursuant to section 13-3102.01; or...

13-3102 (M) Misconduct involving weapons under subsection A, paragraph 15 of this section is a class 2 felony. Misconduct involving weapons under subsection A, paragraph 9, 14 or 16 of this section is a class 3 felony. Misconduct involving weapons under subsection A, paragraph 3, 4, 8 or 13 of this section is a class 4 felony. Misconduct involving weapons under subsection A, paragraph 12 of this section is a class 1 misdemeanor unless the violation occurs in connection with conduct that violates section 13-2308, subsection A, paragraph 5, section 13-2312, subsection C, section 13-3409 or section 13-3411, in which case the offense is a class 6 felony. Misconduct involving weapons under subsection A, paragraph 1, subdivision (a) of this section or subsection A, paragraph 5, 6 or 7 of this section is a class 6 felony. Misconduct involving weapons under subsection A, paragraph 1, subdivision (b) of this section or subsection A, paragraph 10 or 11 of this section is a class 1 misdemeanor. Misconduct involving weapons under subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section is a class 3 misdemeanor.

Note to All: Notice none of those are 4-229 as that applies to alcohol places.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I think sometimes people play the game of active vs passive notification (does the law say it matters?) and "I didn't knowingly enter" "Prove a I knowingly entered"...

The "knowingly" in the criminal trespass statute (13-1502) would generally be satisfied by the presence of a posted notice. Of course one might argue that he didn't see the notice and that, therefore, his wrongful entry wasn't "knowingly." Whether that has much chance of flying is going to depend in large part on the notice. Was it clearly and prominently posted or was it fine print in a dark corner.

And note that the Q&A you posted from the Arizona Department of Public Safety site is based on entering a business without a "no guns" sign posted.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

For a non-liquor licensee "No guns" has the same force of law as "No shoes, no shirt, no service" and "employees only". 3rd degree misdemeanor trespass (2nd degree if a fenced commercial yard). It does not count as misconduct with weapons and you won't loose your permit.

Frank is correct that as a legal matter they don't have to ask you to leave. The offense is committed upon entering.

For liquor licensees, the signage requirements are very specific. 80+% of the time there will be invalid signage at the front door. Only once did I see valid signage at the door, proceeded inside as allowed by the law to check if valid signage was posted next to the liquor license and actually find valid signage there.

Since the state provided valid signs to licensees for free my pet theory is that some places may actually want invalid signage. People who know the law are happy and the grass feeders are calmed.

Mike

 

[armoredman]

To the OP, consult with AZ CDL or other Arizona based firearms organization. Simple statement is if there is a sign up, don't go in. Other than that, your permit is recognized, and you should be fine with simply CARRYING it - you need to consult with an Arizona BAR admitted attorney on the differences of USE of deadly physical force should be required to use your firearm in self defense. Short - our statutes seem to be pretty darn good to this non- lawyer.

 

[danez71]

For a non-liquor licensee "No guns" has the same force of law as "No shoes, no shirt, no service" and "employees only". 3rd degree misdemeanor trespass (2nd degree if a fenced commercial yard). It does not count as misconduct with weapons and you won't loose your permit.

Frank is correct that as a legal matter they don't have to ask you to leave. The offense is committed upon entering.

For liquor licensees, the signage requirements are very specific. 80+% of the time there will be invalid signage at the front door. Once once did I see valid signage at the door, proceeded inside as allowed by the law to check if valid signage was posted next to the liquor license and actually find valid signage there.

Since the state provided valid signs to licensees for free my pet theory is that some places may actually want invalid signage. People who know the law are happy and the grass feeders are calmed.

Mike

The Tejas Grill at the Scottsdale Mall is a good example of that.

If you enter through the patio area there is no sign at all. Staff will seat you using that entrance.

If you enter through the front, there is a correct sign but its posted all wrong and you probably wont even see it.

They attach it to the inside of one of the double front doors about waist high. They attach it to the one that normally doesn't open.

The result is:
Good weather - They open both front double doors and block the sign with the hostess and podium right in front of it.

Bad weather - The door its posted on is normally the 'fixed' door and doesn't open. When you walk in, straight ahead is the liquor license but the sign is already behind you.

It was my 3rd time there before I ever saw the No Guns sign.... which was not even posted correctly.

 

[Nom de Forum]

The Tejas Grill at the Scottsdale Mall is a good example of that.

If you enter through the patio area there is no sign at all. Staff will seat you using that entrance.

If you enter through the front, there is a correct sign but its posted all wrong and you probably wont even see it.

They attach it to the inside of one of the double front doors about waist high. They attach it to the one that normally doesn't open.

The result is:
Good weather - They open both front double doors and block the sign with the hostess and podium right in front of it.

Bad weather - The door its posted on is normally the 'fixed' door and doesn't open. When you walk in, straight ahead is the liquor license but the sign is already behind you.

It was my 3rd time there before I ever saw the No Guns sign.... which was not even posted correctly.

Yup. I live 5 minutes away and eat there quite frequently because my wife loves their Chambord Margaritas! Scottsdale Fashion Square is posted but inappropriately. You can easily enter Z' Tejas from the outside entrance without having signage visible and probably miss the signage at the inside the mall entrance.

 

[danez71]

Yup. I live 5 minutes away and eat there quite frequently because my wife loves their Chambord Margaritas! Scottsdale Fashion Square is posted but inappropriately. You can easily enter Z' Tejas from the outside entrance without having signage visible and probably miss the signage at the inside the mall entrance.

The small entrance that faces The Days Inn right at the edge of the parking structure isn't/wasn't posted at all.

I haven't stay at that hotel or been to Z Tejas in about 2 yrs so things may have changed.

 

[Nom de Forum]

The small entrance that faces The Days Inn right at the edge of the parking structure isn't/wasn't posted at all.

I haven't stay at that hotel or been to Z Tejas in about 2 yrs so things may have changed.

Things have indeed changed. The Days Inn was leveled several months ago for a mall extension that will house a new multi-screen theater amongst other things. One of those other things will be a giant Dick's Sporting Goods store. What will be really interesting is when the Dick's opens will they be selling firearms in what is one of the top 5 luxury shopping malls in the United States. That should be very interesting for the bazillion non-american tourists who shop their every year. At times there are so many non-english/spanish conversations going on in Scottsdale Fashion Square it is hard to believe you are not in Europe or Far East Asia. I think those tourists will be amazed if they find guns for sale in the same building as Tiffany & Co., Cartier, Bulgari, Nieman Marcus, and Barney's of New York. Next time I visit I will check the signage at the entrance you mentioned.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Simple statement is if there is a sign up, don't go in.

Simple but not what the law says.

Mike

 

[danez71]

Things have indeed changed. The Days Inn was leveled several months ago for a mall extension that will house a new multi-screen theater amongst other things. One of those other things will be a giant Dick's Sporting Goods store. What will be really interesting is when the Dick's opens will they be selling firearms in what is one of the top 5 luxury shopping malls in the United States. That should be very interesting for the bazillion non-american tourists who shop their every year. At times there are so many non-english/spanish conversations going on in Scottsdale Fashion Square it is hard to believe you are not in Europe or Far East Asia. I think those tourists will be amazed if they find guns for sale in the same building as Tiffany & Co., Cartier, Bulgari, Nieman Marcus, and Barney's of New York. Next time I visit I will check the signage at the entrance you mentioned.

Wow.. things do change. I take it they leveled that restaurant too then (CoCo's??). That gas station closed a 4 or so yrs ago and the mall expanded there when they did the frontage makeover. I think there was an Arts Theater or school there too...?

We would stay at that hotel and we'd walk over to Tejas or that other one next door for dinner. Once Z-Gallery closed a few yrs ago and a new in-law got us huge discounts at Crate and Barrel, the wife wasn't as interested in staying at the hotel as much.

 

[Nom de Forum]

To the OP, consult with AZ CDL or other Arizona based firearms organization. Simple statement is if there is a sign up, don't go in. Other than that, your permit is recognized, and you should be fine with simply CARRYING it - you need to consult with an Arizona BAR admitted attorney on the differences of USE of deadly physical force should be required to use your firearm in self defense. Short - our statutes seem to be pretty darn good to this non- lawyer.

I think signage must comply with what the law specifies. If I am not mistaken the signage must in addition to having the words "No Weapons Permitted" or "No Firearms Permitted" it must also have the A.R.S. number and a pictogram. Without those elements in the signage it may be that any other sign is legally meaningless as evidence for prosecution. Not that I would want to use that defense in court! The signage at the North Entrance that I visited today was 4' to the left of the sliding glass entry door and only stated "No smoking or weapons permitted" IIRC.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I think signage must comply with what the law specifies. If I am not mistaken the signage must in addition to having the words "No Weapons Permitted" or "No Firearms Permitted" it must also have the A.R.S. number and a pictogram....

Nope, only the sign required for establishments selling alcoholic beverages for consumption on premises. That's specific to ARS 4-244 regulating entry to such establishments by armed persons. See post 8.

But to be charged under the basic criminal trespass law (ARS 13-1502), the premises must only have a reasonable notice prohibiting entry. See post 8.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Nope, only the sign required for establishments selling alcoholic beverages for consumption on premises. That's specific to ARS 4-244 regulating entry to such establishments by armed persons. See post 8.

But to be charged under the basic criminal trespass law (ARS 13-1502), the premises must only have a reasonable notice prohibiting entry. See post 8.

Frank you are correct, but you shouldn't be. Here's why:

What's reasonable? That is a concept open to interpretation. Many laws and regulations of the past were considered reasonable but today are thought unreasonable and in some cases morally and ethically indefensible. Granted the wording on No Firearms Signs will probably never be considered morally and ethically indefensible even if many of us think what they prohibit is.

If you are going to post a sign on private property prohibiting an activity that failure to comply with could result in arrest shouldn't that sign be nearly impossible not to see and recognize for what it is? Consider all the signs we see daily that warn and direct us. Almost all of them are standardized in size, shape, font, height, and location. Shouldn't all signage prohibiting firearms posted at building entries be the same?

The signage at the Scottsdale Fashion Square mall that was mentioned previously is very poorly placed. If you are approaching the entry door with your focus on the actual opening you can very easily not recognize the signage for what it is. The sign is a brass plaque with decorative script placed on a pillar several feet from the actual opening. This door is located at the end of an approximately 50' corridor that is often crowed with people passing through and often stopped in conversation. Is it reasonable to expect this sign to be seen and complied with?

You're right Frank but you shouldn't be.