AZ Concealed Carry Primer

[Frank Ettin]

...Frank you are correct, but you shouldn't be....

The question of whether or not the law ought to be what it is needs to be directed to the legislature (or the judge if you've been charged with the crime).

...What's reasonable? That is a concept open to interpretation. ...

If you are going to post a sign on private property prohibiting an activity that failure to comply with could result in arrest shouldn't that sign be nearly impossible not to see and recognize for what it is?...

And those are appropriate arguments to make to the judge when you are on trial for criminal trespass.

 

[Nom de Forum]

The question of whether or not the law ought to be what it is needs to be directed to the legislature (or the judge if you've been charged with the crime).

And those are appropriate arguments to make to the judge when you are on trial for criminal trespass.

Neither of which will I ever place myself in a position to have an opportunity to do so with a judge. I am not so sure the Arizona legislature did not intentionally fail to right the statute regarding signage more definitively. This is a very pro-gun state obviously and it would not surprise me if they left the "what is reasonable" defense as an option. Of course they are also notoriously lazy and sloppy with writing laws so perhaps that simpler explanation is more likely.

By the way, I feel completely safe at Scottsdale Fashion Square because they have unarmed security guards and at Christmas one or two moonlighting armed SPD officers. If the new Dick's Sporting Goods does sell guns and the extension is connected to the mall, I believe it will be, I wonder how many people will be sold a gun and then arrested for walking through the mall to get to their car.

 

[danez71]

Frank you are correct, but you shouldn't be. Here's why:

What's reasonable? That is a concept open to interpretation. Many laws and regulations of the past were considered reasonable but today are thought unreasonable and in some cases morally and ethically indefensible. Granted the wording on No Firearms Signs will probably never be considered morally and ethically indefensible even if many of us think what they prohibit is.

If you are going to post a sign on private property prohibiting an activity that failure to comply with could result in arrest shouldn't that sign be nearly impossible not to see and recognize for what it is? Consider all the signs we see daily that warn and direct us. Almost all of them are standardized in size, shape, font, height, and location. Shouldn't all signage prohibiting firearms posted at building entries be the same?

The signage at the Scottsdale Fashion Square mall that was mentioned previously is very poorly placed. If you are approaching the entry door with your focus on the actual opening you can very easily not recognize the signage for what it is. The sign is a brass plaque with decorative script placed on a pillar several feet from the actual opening. This door is located at the end of an approximately 50' corridor that is often crowed with people passing through and often stopped in conversation. Is it reasonable to expect this sign to be seen and complied with?

You're right Frank but you shouldn't be.

We all have to make that decision.


Like when I went to Havasu Credit Union. No sign on the doors or anywhere in sight..... until...

After waiting in line for a few minutes I get to the window teller and there is the cardboard backing to a 3x5 pad of paper, hand written in ball point pen, in letters about 3/8" tall... was written "No Guns".

I couldn't even tell if that was a very weak attempt at a sign made by a teller or a customer's kid (even I have better penmanship).


And at a grocery store in AZ that suddenly had a No guns sign for about 2 weeks written in black marker on regular notebook 8.5x11 paper duck taped to the wall out side above the newspapers.


I don't think most people would consider those "reasonable".


I guess this points out the need to have just one sign requirement that applies to all businesses.

Dang.... now I have to think about this more.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....I don't think most people would consider those "reasonable"....

If the question ever winds up getting seriously litigated, I suspect reasonableness will turn on prominence and legibility. A beautifully printed sign in small type at the bottom of the door would probably be unreasonable. A clear, large sign handwritten in crayon in the middle of the door would probably be reasonable.

And of course if you saw and understood the sign before you went in, it would be hard to argue that it wasn't reasonable notice.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Curious....

I'm curious to know if the forum member who posted this topic has read any or all of the messages or if they forgot they even asked.

I may start holding off to see if the member actually reads or sends reply messages to the topics they submit. If they don't care or can't show any interest then I'm not wasting my time & energy either.