Backcountry hiking

[Phaedrus/69]

I'm a little confused?
You run 200gr Underwood in your 40s&w, but you don't have confidence in running the same bullets in a 10mm. Please explain?

In my experience the .40 cal guns almost universally run the 200gr reliably while it seems like none of the 10mm guns will (aside from a 1911). I'm leaning on the experiences of some very very knowledgeable ten sourdoughs on this one as my own experience with the ten is limited. Folks I know that own Glocks that have had troubles tell me that the company doesn't consider inability to run 200gr as a defect; it's aparently outside the design window. I'm not sure if it's a geometry issue, slide velocity, etc but no one I know that has done high volume shooting with 200gr in the ten (we're talking thousands of rounds, not hundreds) has managed to get them to run reliably. It seems everyone that disagrees is testing fifty or a hundred rounds and calling it good. Do a search here, there's some really good threads discussing this.

When it comes to handguns (and mostly with rifles) I'm a fan of heavy-for-caliber bullets. In the 9mm I use nothing but 147gr, in the .38 I run 158gr hard cast and in the .40 I run 180gr HST in town and 200gr Underwood cast in the woods. If I can't use that big bullet in a 10mm I'd rather just stick with a .40 S&W. The penetration I want to drill deep into a big bear or moose is more a function of a heavy bullet with high sectional density than velocity. If I could find a 10mm auto that ran 200gr reliably and wasn't a 1911 it would be the perfect woods gun for sure. Or at least as good as it gets for a service-type round.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Boy, lots of responses with what “I’m carrying” and some isn’t even germane to a 9mm.

Welcome to THR! Is this your first time on the internet? Yeah, threads do tend to drift a little.

 

[WisBorn]

In my experience the .40 cal guns almost universally run the 200gr reliably while it seems like none of the 10mm guns will (aside from a 1911). I'm leaning on the experiences of some very very knowledgeable ten sourdoughs on this one as my own experience with the ten is limited. Folks I know that own Glocks that have had troubles tell me that the company doesn't consider inability to run 200gr as a defect; it's aparently outside the design window. I'm not sure if it's a geometry issue, slide velocity, etc but no one I know that has done high volume shooting with 200gr in the ten (we're talking thousands of rounds, not hundreds) has managed to get them to run reliably. It seems everyone that disagrees is testing fifty or a hundred rounds and calling it good. Do a search here, there's some really good threads discussing this.

When it comes to handguns (and mostly with rifles) I'm a fan of heavy-for-caliber bullets. In the 9mm I use nothing but 147gr, in the .38 I run 158gr hard cast and in the .40 I run 180gr HST in town and 200gr Underwood cast in the woods. If I can't use that big bullet in a 10mm I'd rather just stick with a .40 S&W. The penetration I want to drill deep into a big bear or moose is more a function of a heavy bullet with high sectional density than velocity. If I could find a 10mm auto that ran 200gr reliably and wasn't a 1911 it would be the perfect woods gun for sure. Or at least as good as it gets for a service-type round.

Many members on the forum run 200 & 220 grain bullets in their 10mm's. The 180 grain is by far more popular.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I'd like to know their tricks! It seems like the more 10mm experience a person has the less convinced they are of 200gr running reliably outside of a 1911. YMMV, of course. FWIW I've heard that the new S&W gun might have been created with the idea of shooting heavier bullets but this is only rumor so far. We'll see!

 

[bearcreek]

Boy, lots of responses with what “I’m carrying” and some isn’t even germane to a 9mm.

Welcome to online forums. I'm reasonably certain that quite a lot of folks read the thread title and then respond without even skimming the OP.

 

[beeenbag]

Here is the thread it is a few posts down.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/underwood-vs-buffalo-bore-hardcast.915919/

@beeenbag I haven't seen the video posted on your YouTube channel yet?

The only way to watch that video as of right now is through the link in that thread. It has still not aired, I keep 8-10 weeks of videos back logged in case I cant record any for a while I will still have content ready. You guys just got an express lane to that one

 

[TRACON]

Welcome to THR! Is this your first time on the internet? Yeah, threads do tend to drift a little.

No, just my first time noticing a gun forum where people are easily….SQUIRREL!!!!!!!

 

[Tallball]

9mm is fine. Whichever load you shoot well.

Feral hogs don't kill people. Bears kill around one American per year.

Top killer animals in the US: deer, bees (hornets, wasps), dogs, livestock.

9mm is probably okay for deer, overkill for bees, okay for dogs, but maybe not enough for cattle?

 

[chaim]

I'd stick with my usual self defense load if it was me. The one caveat, being in the woods, over penetration isn't as big a deal, so loads I'd only discount due to penetration might be used. Wild boar is nothing but a domestic pig that at some point in its ancestry (from a few years back to a couple centuries) escaped and went feral. They are not a different type of pig. Pigs are very close in size and tissue density to humans. Heck, their organs are often so close to us that sometimes their skin and organs are used for transplantation in people. Plus, even in the back country, you are more likely to need your pistol for self defense against a human attacker than a charging boar. So, any load that would work for a criminal attacker, should be effective against a wild pig/boar.

Now, if you ever hike the parts of your state (or other states) that do have black bear, most are going to be roughly the size of a large man (though they can get pretty huge, I saw an article recently about a 650LB black bear killed by a hunter in NC). Unlike grizzly country, I don't think we need a big magnum, and bear spray is supposed to be as effective (if not more effective) at preventing bear attacks as any pistol. So, I'd probably go with bear spray. If you want to be 100% sure of covering every need, I'd go with your 9mm with your regular loading, a light .22 pistol (I'd go with my 317) for snake or a .38 snub loaded with snake loads, and a can of bear spray. In reality, when in bear country, I just drop the .22/.38 snake loads from the above list (and often drop the bear spray), though I may carry a gun with more penetration than my usual self defense load if I don't have the bear spray.

 

[Coyote3855]

While there are mountain lions and black bear in the areas I frequent, the most dangerous animal is probably a moose. I've encountered a few including a cow with calves. Fortunately, they were more afraid of me than I was of them. I carry my EDC Glock 19 in the woods but switch out the loads from Critical Defense 115 to Critical Duty 135. No pigs. Yet.

 

[WisBorn]

I would like to go back to the OP and the idea of switching loads for hiking.
Personal defense loads (hollow points) in service calibers are designed to expand and penetrate based on the FBI standard of 12-18" in ballistic gel after four layers of denim. These loads are tested in service size handguns. Concealed carry size pistols may not produce enough velocity to met the test criteria. It really doesn't matter if you carry a 9mm, 40s&w, or 45acp they all preform within the desired criteria.
Hardcast and flat point FMJ loads are designed to penetrate.
Over penetration is less of a concern in a outdoors environment.
So while hiking were there is a small chance of defending myself against a four legged threat I'll go with penetration instead of a hollow point that might fail. When I get back to town I will switch back to HPs where over penetration can be a concern.

Most of us carry a reload. So the idea of having two magazines (speed loaders or speed strips for revolves) loaded with different loads is just smart.

 

[bearcreek]

I would like to go back to the OP

Keep in mind that the OP is talking about Alabama here........

 

[WisBorn]

Keep in mind that the OP is talking about Alabama here........

I have spent a little time in Alabama and yes they have black bears up North and pigs everywhere. I think people underestimate feral pigs and pigs in general. I can't think of anything that is more dangerous than a sow pig that is separated from her young. I don't care how big they are, I want to stop it if it's coming after me.

 

[Anchorite]

1. There are bears in Northern Alabama.



https://www.outdooralabama.com/black-bear/alabama-black-bears#:~:text=In recent years, black bears,that region of the state.

View attachment 1141660

There are definitely bears in my woods, no pigs though.

I carry a Glock19 and a can of UDAP.

We have bears here in southern Alabama too.
I’d be more afraid of running into pot farmers or meth cooks these days, so I trust G22.3 with standard 180s is more than enough.

 

[bearcreek]

I have spent a little time in Alabama and yes they have black bears up North and pigs everywhere. I think people underestimate feral pigs and pigs in general. I can't think of anything that is more dangerous than a sow pig that is separated from her young. I don't care how big they are, I want to stop it if it's coming after me.

When was the last time that someone was attacked by feral pigs or bears in Alabama?

We have bears here in southern Alabama too.
I’d be more afraid of running into pot farmers or meth cooks these days, so the trust G22.3 with standard 180s is more than enough.

This is what I'm getting at. Even in the Alabama woods, the chances of needing to use a pistol against a human adversary are many, many times greater than needing to use it against a four legged one, so carry the pistol and ammo that works best for the most likely threat.

 

[Anchorite]

Hello all newbie here, me and my wife love to go backpack camping/hiking. 9mm is the only pistol caliber I own and it’s what I take into the woods as a “woods gun”. I know what most people will say 9mm is not recommended for that, but we are located in north Alabama so no bears or big game animals. All we have in my neck of the woods is maybe a rabid raccoon or coyote. Those two I’m not worried about so much it’s the two legged kind and we have an invasion or wild feral hogs. So my question is what’s a good ammo choice that will work for SD purpose and cover as a woods gun? Right now I swap my carry load critical defense out for Buffalo bore outdoorsman hardcast when I go hiking just in case I run into mr piggy. Is there a hollow point bullet out there that I could just stock up on practice with it and it serve well for both scenarios? I don’t want to use hardcast for SD in fear of over penetration and a hollow point not reaching the vitals on a charging hog. Maybe the critical duty line since it’s a “barrier blind” bullet? I just thought I would throw it out there and see what everyone else does!

I went to HS in Decatur and spent years pounding the backwoods of Morgan, Limestone and Lawrence counties. Not sure where you are, but back in those days we hiked with a .410 single shot shotgun and a 22 revolver. Worst encounter I ever had was with a pack of wild dogs - which back in the mid-eighties was a serious problem. One or two shots form the 22 and the pack beat a hasty retreat.

I know things have changed in 30 years, but I think you’d be fine with a 9mm. And you’re right - you’re more likely to run across a two-legged varmint these days, probably cooking meth. Back in my day it was growing weed or making ‘shine (we did stumble upon a still once).

 

[WrongHanded]

My two cents (which has evolved over time) is currently this:

Handguns are a serious compromise. Instead of an appropriately loaded rifle or shotgun, which would be a better choice for stopping a threat immediately, we often choose the compact portability of a handgun. It's okay that we do this, but we need to accept that we have sacrificed power (and often precision) for comfort.

That being the case, I am a proponent of the philosophy to carry the most powerful handgun you can shoot well. What that is for you, I simply cannot say. But you would do well to figure it out.

But getting the gun out and making hits with it quickly and with repeatability, is the most important part.

 

[WisBorn]

When was the last time that someone was attacked by feral pigs or bears in Alabama?

I guess they have nice pigs and bears in Alabama.
It's Arkansas (Razorbacks) that they have the mean pigs.
But I will say that the bears in Chicago are nicer. They are easier to stop too all you have to do is put up an end zone (Go Green Bay)....
ON a serious note; won't hardcast work on a man????

 

[bearcreek]

ON a serious note; won't hardcast work on a man????

Sure, with the right placement. So will a pen knife. Hollow points work better though, generally speaking, so why not use them?

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Nothing particularly scary or dangerous around here---you'll see an occasional coyote but they're still pretty skittish --a .22 is plenty-------now when I go west, its a Glock 20 or Ruger SP101 plus a pump shotgun with slugs and buckshot in the truck.

 

[TRACON]

ON a serious note; won't hardcast work on a man????

Indeed they will, but they’ll, act just like a FMJ. Basically just punching a hole straight through and that is what generally does NOT aid in rapid blood loss nor an immediate loss of blood pressure. Of course a brain or CNS shot will immediately incapacitate, but those shots are statistically harder to “score,” especially with a moving target. This is why hollowpoints are the supreme projectile for human zombies.

With rapid expansion and deep (enough) penetration, the hollowpoint bullet literally “dumps” all of its kinetic energy into the target by staying inside the body (hopefully) and instead of merely just passing through like an FMJ. By expanding in the body, the HP bullet also may cause larger wound channels which causes larger injury (hemorrhaging), which hopefully causes faster blood and blood pressure loss, thus ending the threat sooner.

Third, using hardcast or FMJ’s on humans definitely runs the risk of over penetration and striking an innocent person. Not so much risk is to be had with a well designed hollowpoint.

Never use FMJ’s nor Hardcast on humans if at all possible.

 

[jstert]

Never use FMJ’s nor Hardcast on humans if at all possible.

that’s not what uncle sam taught me in 1972. i practice as much as possible, with “target range” ammo, so my practice ammo is what i carry. if carrying a semiauto pistol it is loaded with fmj ball ammo. i’m used to how it feels and where it’s aimed. it feeds without worry.

probably the likeliest mammalian threat most of us face when enjoying the outdoors strides on two legs. hits anywhere on-target with fmj ball ammo will disengage this threat from us, which is my simple goal anyway.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

If I had to run FMJ I'd just load up with Federal 147gr FN-FMJ and go about my day. Not ideal but a flat-nose FMJ isn't a terrible option, at least compared to the RN variety. Obviously we civilians operate under different ROI than military folks in active war zones but as one specops guy said, "I've killed plenty of guys with FMJ."

 

[ExtremeSquared]

My glock 26 has more backpack/hike miles on it than anything else I own. Gold dot 147. The amount of time spent thinking about this is probably counterproductive versus just spending more time outside.

Overthinking minor details has orders of magnitude less effect on outcome than wearing a helmet 24/7, and I don't do that.

 

[Captains1911]

In my experience the .40 cal guns almost universally run the 200gr reliably while it seems like none of the 10mm guns will (aside from a 1911). I'm leaning on the experiences of some very very knowledgeable ten sourdoughs on this one as my own experience with the ten is limited. Folks I know that own Glocks that have had troubles tell me that the company doesn't consider inability to run 200gr as a defect; it's aparently outside the design window. I'm not sure if it's a geometry issue, slide velocity, etc but no one I know that has done high volume shooting with 200gr in the ten (we're talking thousands of rounds, not hundreds) has managed to get them to run reliably. It seems everyone that disagrees is testing fifty or a hundred rounds and calling it good. Do a search here, there's some really good threads discussing this.

When it comes to handguns (and mostly with rifles) I'm a fan of heavy-for-caliber bullets. In the 9mm I use nothing but 147gr, in the .38 I run 158gr hard cast and in the .40 I run 180gr HST in town and 200gr Underwood cast in the woods. If I can't use that big bullet in a 10mm I'd rather just stick with a .40 S&W. The penetration I want to drill deep into a big bear or moose is more a function of a heavy bullet with high sectional density than velocity. If I could find a 10mm auto that ran 200gr reliably and wasn't a 1911 it would be the perfect woods gun for sure. Or at least as good as it gets for a service-type round.

200 gr bullets run perfectly reliable in my G20, and this is the first time I’ve ever heard of this reliability issue. I personally know a handful of people, and have heard from many more on here and other forums, who’s experience with 200 gr 10mm loads mirror my own.