Backcountry Traveler / Wilderness Guide Guns

[Serum556]

My brother's recently completed all his coursework and certifications to become an outdoor educator (e.g. NOLS). The line of work he's entering is going to put him out, way out in the backcountry, in various locations all over the country. Mountains, East and West, most likely.

In short, he wants/needs a firearm. Understandably, he doesn't want to be caught miles and miles and miles from everyone and everywhere in an emergency situation without a means of protection or food procurement.

The thing both of us are most worried about are bears, maybe mountain lions, and anything else of that nature that could, should it decide, attack him or any companions he might be travelling with. He wanted a shotgun, but decided the ammunition was too heavy/expensive, then a bolt-action type rifle, but decided again against cost/weight.

He likes lever-action rifles, and figures one short enough to be strapped to a trekking type of backpack would be very handy. Since pretty much every lever-action rifle has iron sights, he figured that would be a good insurance policy in case of some optic failure, etc. He's looking at the Marlins, which he likes, but isn't so sure on the calibers. I suggested an 1895 in 45/70 since it's very versatile, and can be loaded softly or hotly. But we've also been looking at the .44 Magnum and .357 Magnum versions of the 1894.

We're wondering, in a combination self defense/food procurement role, what would be best? Would a 45/70 be enough to reliably take down an attacking bear while still being able to take game without destroying it? Same questions for all those calibers. (We're probably talking deer-sized game).

Also, if he decides the rifle route is too bulky, and decides he doesn't really need a hunting rifle, since he's going to be a guide, not a hunter, we were looking at the Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan in .454 Casull/.45 Colt. How would that be as a defense gun against bears/mountain lions? And could normally loaded .45 Colt be used for opportunist hunting, if it was necessary?

Thanks for the input.

 

[bearmgc]

Consider a lever action chambered for .444Marlin. It is made also in the guide gun size. Another possibility is a lever action in 44mag, also can be had in a short barrel. Both can handle black bears, couger etc, and take down game if need be.

 

[Guns_and_Labs]

A .45-70 is a fine choice. In the heaviest loads, it will take almost anything down. In "normal" loads, it will take game, albeit at somewhat short range (150 yards or so, no problem). There's not much meat destruction, either.

When I was guiding (packing and climbing, not hunting), though, I tended towards a light-ish .44 magnum handgun. If I were choosing now, though, I'd take my S&W 329PD for defense... and the Marlin Guide Gun .45-70 if I were considering taking game.

 

[GunGoBoom]

I don't know if everyone here has actually packed everything they need on their backs for a long distance, but the lightest gun humanly possible is an absolute necessity, or you'll end up burying it, throwing it into a creek, or finding a town and mailing to yourself (after disguising it), just to make better time. About the heaviest I'd go for true backpacking would be a Springfield/CZ M6 Scout in .22/.410 O/U (also comes in .22 hornet/.410). But better yet one of the superlight NEF or that other .410 single shot. Or maybe even a light plastic pistol like a Glock 29 instead, but the latter would be MUCH harder to get little critters with than a .410 especially if they're running. And with .410 slugs mixed in with shot, you can get the best of all worlds. So, if weight AND space are an issue, then a small pistol. If only weight is an issue (if you have a method for strapping it to your pack, or don't mind always carrying it), then one of the .410 choices is ideal for a survival gun, IMO.

Non-backpacking (i.e. with a vehicle), or on a day hike, are horses of an entirely different color, in which case a levergun is a very good choice.

 

[Tokugawa]

Hmmm... well first of all, unless he is a hunting guide, he may find a lot of the "new outdoors" client types are convinced that guns are evil. I have run into them in the back country. That aside, a short barrel pump shot gun is a light and versatile weapon. Some Brennke slugs for bear defense, some sabot slugs for hunting and some birdshot. And you can use 12 ga. flares. And buckshot if two legged vermin have been a problem. Also, forget strapping it to a pack. It will get tangled in the brush and won't be in the hand when needed. For carrying, I prefer a standard length four shot magazine, the weapon seems to have a better balance point in the hand.
After using a 45/70 marlin I have some doubts about how reliable the feeding is, handguns are for when you absolutely can't have a rifle or shotgun at all.
MY 2cents.

 

[Serum556]

GunGoBoom, we would have considered a combo .410/.22 survival rifle, but I'm going to assume it's a safe bet that neither would do much other than to infuriate a large predatory animal. That's why the heavier calibers have made an appearance here.

What are the differences between .444 Marlin and a .45/70 Government? It's been said that a .44 magnum could take bear, would that be a better option considering that rifle has a 10 shot magazine and lighter/cheaper ammunition? What kind of commercial loads can be had for each, and which would be a better "all-around" caliber? I think, for the most part, it's safe to assume that we're talking defense more than anything else here. He's not a hunter, it was just a consideration if, say, somehow he got lost or trapped way out in the woods and needed to take down something to survive.

In this case, which would really be better? A rifle or large caliber pistol? No one's said anything about the Super Redhawk idea, which he seems to like, considering he can carry .454 Casull loaded for defense, and can shoot .45 Colt for practice. Thoughts? He's not so keen on shotguns, given the size/weight of the shells. For what he's doing, 2-3 week treks, size and weight are sizeable considerations.

(on another note, what about a 10mm Glock? Or are we getting too small to reliably defend against predatory animals?)

 

[Brian Williams]

West coast get a good 4" 44mag either a Ruger Blackhawk or Mt gun from S&W and load it with some Corbons. East coast get a good 3" or 4" and load up some 180 gr LSWC.

 

[treeprof]

The .444 is a fine cartridge, but it is not nearly as versatile as the .45-70, especially if you're not a handloader and don't cast your own bullets. With the right load, the .45-70 will do (and has done) pretty much anything asked of it. The .44 mag picks up a good bit of steam from a 16" or 20" bbl (and I have .44 Marlins in both bbl configurations), but if I TRULY needed a bear defense rifle, it wouldn't be my 1st choice.

If it were me in your brother's situation, I'd pack a .44 mag handgun (prob my 629 Mtn Gun), rather than a rifle. I like Federal 300 gr Castcores for a pretty potent and reasonably widely-available .44 factory load, and used to carry them in a Super Blackhawk when I live in Interior AK. I like my Glock 20 for woods carry, esp. here in the east U.S., but it is even further on the light side than a .44 (or any other handgun) when it comes to bears. The odds of having to deal with such, however, prob do not warrant carrying a rifle in the lower 48 (esp, given the probability that it'll not be in-hand when you unexpectedly, but really, really need it). Bear in mind that long guns are not only heavier than handguns, but a bit unwieldy to get into action from one's backpack.

The Ruger Alaskan is an interesting gun, but the short sight radius diminshes its utility for hunting/gathering at any extended distance. Also, there's no point in practicing with .45 Colt loads and shooting .454's for defense. One should shoot what one carries, esp. given diffs in the point of impact/point of aim with these loads. You could carry heavy .45 Colt loads for defense, but the short bbl on the Alaskan will largely negate any narrow advantage that heavy .45 Colts have over heavy .44's if you carry a 4" gun the Mtn Gun. Moreover, 3-4 cylinders worth of heavy .44 loads thru a light wt .44 like the Mtn Gun is abt all the fun your brother will likely be able to stand for a day.

 

[Tinker2]

22 lr

So tell me why not a 22 lr ??

Cheap to shoot.
Cheap to buy guns
Light weight ammo
Light weight guns
100 rounds does’t take any space
Take apart small guns made to pack
You can shoot 500 rounds a day and still feel your hand.
Remember he is not planing to live off the land unless some unforeseen
disaster befalls him. If he thinks that is going to happen a lot he should
stay out of the woods. A 22lr would not be my first choice for deer or
the like but in a survivor type deal it will work just fine.
If it is a self defense type of thing, two legged or four, I don’t care how
big or how mean and vicious it is, if you can’t run away, put one or more
bullets in each of it’s eyes and call me in the morning.

 

[22-rimfire]

No single gun will sufice to cover every possibility. My suggestion is that he get a 44 magnum lever rifle (carbine) and adjust to the weight (Examples- Marlin 1894 SS or PG or Winchester 94 Pack Rifle). It can be used for just about any need including shooting small game for survivial or defending yourself from a bruin or bad guy. Otherwise, go with a 22 pistol such as a Ruger Mark II bull barrel (5.5") or a 22 revolver such as a Colt Diamondback (4") or Smith K-22 or similar. You can put meat on the table with either handgun. Ammo is cheap and light. You could probably do a fairly good job of scaring off a large animal that was not set on eating you but mostly curious. If he is thinking of scaring off predators, he will have to have the gun handy pretty much all the time.

 

[Dave R]

FWIW, last time I went on a backpacking trip with the Scouts, we crossed paths with a guy who looked like a serious backpacker who had been out for a while. 4-5 days growth of beard, good hiking gear, etc. He was entering a waypoint on his GPS, in a place with a particularly nice view.

He appeared to be carrying a Marlin Guide Gun strapped to his pack with some sort of quick-release clips. I didn't get to inspect it closely.

I, on the other hand, was carrying a Taurus PT-145 in .45acp. Probably not the gun for bear. "A poor thing, but mine own," to mis-quote Shakespeare.

 

[TarpleyG]

If money is available, check out the Alaskan Co-Pilot.

http://www.wildwestguns.com/

Greg

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I don't know if everyone here has actually packed everything they need on their backs for a long distance, but the lightest gun humanly possible is an absolute necessity, or you'll end up burying it, throwing it into a creek, or finding a town and mailing to yourself

I'd carry what I usually carry -- a .22 pistol. The gun is light, the ammo is light, and in a survival situation you're more likely to hunt small game than big game.

Another choice is a good centerfire handgun with both shot and ball loads.

The comment was made that as a guide you might run into clients who object to your carrying guns. A friend of mine had that problem, and he listened politely to a lecture about the evil of guns, then said, "You think that now. But you may change your opinion after you've passed through a bear's digestive tract."

 

[litman252]

If he is willing to put up with the weight of a long gun go for a 94 trapper, I'd take it in good old 30-30. If he is serious about the hole thing and has the money I'd go for a light 44 with a lever gun to match. On the light side and just incase something really bad happens stay with the 44 handgun only.


My $00.002 worth.


Tony

 

[ArgentineSteel]

The 22lr may be a good survival option

But it's a squirell gun. if he's not in a survival situation but a self defense situation the 22lr isn't the option for him. Sure you can kill a bear with it, but you can do the same by banging his head with two good sized rocks. It's all in the shot placement.

A guide may have to do some hunting and a good lever gun would be handy for that. The Pistol caliber lever actions are handy if you're going to carry a side arm in the same caliber. If not, then go with the 45/70.

 

[Dr.Rob]

3" .357 or .44 in a safepacker... noone will know it's there. Rifles are kind of awkward on a pack and hard to put into 'fast use' from there.

As a 'camp gun' a shot barreled single shot 12 ga. is better than none at all.

The AR-7 is a neat idea, and designed for small game in an emergency... sadly no 'big bore' rifle has ever been made like it.

 

[jefnvk]

I'd go with GGB. A .410 slug should deal with some of the bigger animals.

 

[rockstar.esq]

+1 .44mag revo!

 

[WYO]

Browning BLR in .358. After that, I like Dr. Rob's suggestion of the 3" .357. If someone won't carry a rifle they probably aren't going to carry a monster handgun, either.

 

[rwc]

I hate to be a naysayer, but unless he's guiding hunters the company he works for (NOLS, OB, etc.) probably will forbid firearms. I've friends who followed that path (one for ~20 years). He doesn't talk about bears, he talks about working like a dog to keep a dozen or so urban teenage idiots alive for a week or two (He's got some great "hoods-in-the-woods" stories).

Think about this for a second. You are taking teenagers, most of whom have never been more than a .25 mile from blacktop out into the boonies. NOLS and OB take folks a good way out on their wilderness trips. Keeping these kids fed, watered, warm, dry, and out of Mr. Death's path is more than a full time job! And then you are trying to teach them something about independence, self-sufficiency, and maybe a bit of respect for the natural environment.

It may just be me, but outside of Alaska and Canada I would guide without a firearm. I've spent a good chunk of time in the woods out here all over the West in the last 30+ years and the worst confrontation I've had with critters was a couple of Skunks who came by to ask "What's for dinner?" The right answer - "Anything you want." Let's just say it was a lean, but stink-free breakfast the next morning...