BACKDOOR IN INDIANA?

[PUNISHER56]

GREAT, THE STATE OF INDIANA NOW HAS A "SHALL
ISSUE" LIFE-TIME HANDGUN CARRY LICENCE. ALSO,
THE STATE OF INDIANA HAS DROPPED ALL REQUIRED
CALL-IN CRIMINAL BACK GROUND CHECKS WHEN A
HANDGUN BUYER PURCHASES (BY LEGAL PROCESS)
A HANDGUN WITH-OUT A CARRY LICENCE.GREAT HUH?
WELL SUPRISE...THE STATE OF INDIANA NOW WANTS
THE DEALER TO MAKE A FULL COMPLETE COPY OF THE BUYERS FEDERAL 4473 FORM WITH ALL OF YOUR
PERSONAL INFO INCLUDING WHAT MAKE GUN AND
SERIAL NUMBER, AND REQUIRES THE DEALER TO MAIL
IT TO THE STATE! THIS IS AGAINST FEDERAL LAW SET
BY THE BATFE. SOUND LIKE CANADA?ENGLAND?
AUSTRALIA? CALL YOUR REPRESENITIVES NOW.
STOP THIS GUN REGISTRATION. L.W. F.F.L. IN INDIANA

 

[kludge]

Yup.

It's backdoor everywhere due to the Form 4473.

 

[kludge]

How did the Treasury Dept. get police powers anyway?

Congress has no police power.

They can't convey powers they do not possess themselves.

So, where did they get it?

The same place the IRS gets it I suppose...

Thin Air.

 

[PUNISHER56]

KLUDGE, YOUR RIGHT, THE 4473 FORM IS A
FORM OF GUN CONTROL.HOWEVER, THE 4473
STAYS IN THE PROTECTION OF THE DEALER UNTIL
THE DEALER GO'S OUT OF BUSINESS, THEN ALL
OF THE 4473'S GO TO ATLANTA TO THE ATF
FOR STORAGE.THE 4473 CAN NOT BE VIEWED BY
ANYONE, STATE, FEDS OR EVEN THE BUYER ONCE
THE TRANSACTION IS COMPLETED. THE ONLY
EXCEPTIONS ARE BY COURT ORDER OR A ATF AUDIT
OF RECORDS WHICH IS RANDOM.
L.W.

 

[ProficientRifleman]

Out of business dealer records go to West (by God) Virginia.

The state police should keep using its own form if they want something turned in. The former form was much like the original Federal Brady (5 day wait) 5300 form. They keep them for 30 days and toss them anyway. The 4473 should not be demanded as there is no provision in Federal law saying the dealer's permanent record is transferable to any state.

 

[mrmeval]

Yawn

It's against Federal law. I'm pretty sure it's against state law and may violate the constitution on the face of it.

It'll get thrown out. I'm not sure who put it in or suckered an anti into putting it in but I'm pretty sure it will die when challenged.

I thought someone here said that it's expulsion was almost a done deal?

 

[mrmeval]

Congress has control over it's own domain so it has police powers over that.
We the people enacted the 14th which gave them dominion over us.

 

[El Tejon]

mrmeval, yes, it is against federal law, however, as Les describes the problem is that the state po-po are doing it regardless.

Call and write your state rep, state senator and the Gov.

 

[Desertdog]

Call and write your state rep, state senator and the Gov.

No, no, just find yourself a GOOD RTKBA lawyer and file a class action suit. This is no job for Political Critters.:banghead:

Use the same tools as the anti-gun crowds, lawyers.

 

[progunner1957]

Backdoored again, in Indiana...

If you have ever bought a gun for which you had to fill out a 4473, "The Government" knows about it. There can be no doubt that 4473's are being used to track who owns what guns.

"The Government" has demonstrated that it has absolutely no hesitation about violating the Bill of Rights and federal law on hundreds of occasions over the decades - why would this be any different?

 

[Marnoot]

LWWOLFE, please do not type in all caps. Online it's considered yelling, it's hard to read, and it makes people who would otherwise want to read your posts not want to.

I'd write your senators/congressmen first, then take legal action if you're so inclined. You'd need to gather some momentum via gaining support in numbers before you'd be able to make any headway, though, I think.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I have a news flash for all of you: The ATF has access to 4473's whenever they want them.

When the friendly agents came to my door they had a copy of every 4473 I'd filled out in the last year, covering 5 different dealers and a wide area of the state.

When I inquired, Mr. JBT told me "Those forms are OUR property and we can do whatever WE want with them, now let us into your house and show us your guns".

(I said "NO" and called the lawyer I keep on retainer for just such occasions.)

If you think your guns aren't "registered", whatever state you live in, it's only because .gov hasn't taken an interest in you. Yet.

(Of course, the solution is to buy guns from private parties, "off form".)

 

[Jingolaw]

Legislative oversight in Indiana

Dear Forum Members:

When Indiana adopted the generally favorable CCW law now in place, the legislature sought to also streamline the record-keeping and administrative process. The separate State Police form requirement was dropped, and the State Police now wish to use the same form 4473 used by ATF.

This use of ATF form 4473 may be precluded by federal law (see 28 CFR 1, Part 25).

Indiana either inadvertently or purposefully dropped their requirement that information received for the purpose of conducting state background checks be destroyed after 30 days.

The National Rifle Association is aware of the positive and negative aspects of this change in the law, and is working with state legislators to craft an acceptable solution through either amendment or regulatory language, though the Indiana Legislature will not be back in session until January of 2007.

We are therefore in active and productive discussions with the Attorney General of Indiana, who should be able to resolve this misstep before the end of July (when dealers in Indiana would have had to begin sending information to State Police).

Be assured, however, that the negative aspects of the change in law have not gone unnoticed, and be further assured that the National Rifle Association will use every resource to work toward quick and efficient resolution of this difficulty.


Thank you for your continued support.

-Eric Swartz
Office of Legislative Counsel
National Rifle Association – Institute for Legislative Action

 

[El Tejon]

Jingo (Eric), good to know. Don't bother returning my call then.

Les faxed me the letter from the state po-po yesterday. I cannot believe that they have the temerity to do this. So much for the law. Don't ever let me hear Indiana State Police say a word about "integrity" or "professionalism" after this debacle.

Yes, the General Assembly does not meet until January but Mr. Carter could issue an opinion and put the kibosh to this nonsense. However, we are going to need a groundswell of outrage, brothers. So, get outraged and write and call.

Bring the heat to the politicians and they will see the light.

 

[GoRon]

Welcome to the forum Eric (Jingolaw)!

 

[gunsmith]

Llwolfe, please edit the CAPS out of your post

And try to get some paragraphs.

It is very difficult to read it as is....

People who write in all caps can not be taken seriously on a good forum.

Even myspacers are smarter then that!

 

[ProficientRifleman]

mrmeval

You are correct. The 14th Amendment created a class of federal citizenship which didn't exist before.

 

[txgho1911]

I was told through correspondence and discussion that Rep. Bill Ruppel, Chair PUBLIC SAFETY AND HOMELAND SECURITY Committee stuck that 4473 component into the bill.
He thought he was doing right as including a wee lil bit of homeland security and he bragged about that at the signing!
As far as working against him personally I cannot say either way. I do not know if he has challengers and the primary is past us now. No deposing of that royalty with another of the same genre.

From the 2nd Amendment Patriots there is ongoing communications with Troy Woodruff and Johnny Nugent. Lt Gov Skillman was at the last meeting and is the loop on this issue. Letters have been sent to the AG for clarification and direction that where returned due to the fact that such communication must be received from a dept or legislature member.

Hold the phones and wait on the calls to the AG office. That may eventually be needed but not right now. That may be a final measure to get this addressed now instead of waiting on the next session.

As far the bill that was signed. I was under the impression that the registration component was to be ignored as it was a fed violation. For now though the letters where sent and received. Some of the communications with the legislators included mention that there is no penalty for non compliance by a FFL holder. Also it is not lost on everyone other avenues of retaliation available to the ISP.

Currently those letters and other communications are ongoing with the Gov's office and the AG through the legislators that have been working for these reforms.

I do not believe this gives any exemptions to any licensee for any purpose. This only removed the state’s background check.

 

[kludge]

If you would, please keep us updated on this, and let us know when/who to call/write.