Bad bullets made good... maybe.

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

So, good defensive ammo is a bit thin on the ground locally, especially in calibers like 9mm. Pintos was out of 9mm defensive bullets, but had .38/.357 125gr XTP bullets on hand, and I picked up a box to reload. I often have my .38/.357 bullets do double duty in 9mm; I mean, what's .002" between friends? I also picked up a box of 500 Xtreme 115gr. JHPs. The thing is the Extreme JHPs are match bullets, not designed to expand, and the jacket (actually thick plating) covers the inside of the small, hexagonal hollow point as well. The smart money says they won't expand, but the are solid, consistent, relatively inexpensive and accurate bullets, and most importantly they had them so what the hell.

I loaded a box of 9mm, and looking at those bullets was like looking back in time to the '80's, when hollow point bullets were unreliable. It's just an un-bonded jacket with a cup-shaped hole and some token groves in the nose. So I checked some tests on You Tube. My suspicions were correct. On FBI-style tests the didn't expand significantly at 1150 fps., so they might as well be solids at .38 Special velocities. Well, at least they were expensive...
Standard 125gr. .357 XTPs-


The I got to thinking... I swage custom bullets and do case-forming. Maybe I could do a little something to improve these bullets...

I got a piece of 5/32" music-wire, turned a point on one end and polished it up nicely, then inserted it into a sizing/decapping die. I have a pusher-plate that fits my press for forming brass, so I mounted that and ran a bullet into the die. With a little adjustment I was soon producing spiff, effective-looking hollow-point bullets from the throwback XTPs. I loaded some into 9mm, and they look the business. They cycle just fine in my 9mms too.

Original on the left, modified on the right-


I adjusted the tool for a bit more penetration to make a deeper cavity, and now I've got something that looks like it will expand at .38 Special velocities. I loaded those up in a fairly stout standard pressure load, which ought to make something over 900fps. from my 3" K-frame.

Again, original on the left, modified on the right-


This got me thinking about the Xtreme JHPs, so I adjusted again and ran them. They look pretty good, and I suspect that they'll expand reasonably too, with the already thin 'jacket' stretched even thinner. Need to come up with some reasonable tests for all of these. Can't really afford to spring for a gel set up just now.

Original on the left, modified on the right-

 

[LiveLife]

Interesting ... I am going to hold my reply until I see accuracy on target at defensive distances and expansion performance of bullets.

BTW TJConevera has following 9mm JHP bullets in stock (Free shipping on $75+ orders):

115 gr JHP $104/1000 - https://store.tjconevera.com/newtjco9mm115.html

 

[tightgroup tiger]

You could try to find some of the rubber balls and force in the hollow points to keep them from plugging up. If they plug on impact they won't open.

With that thick jacket or plating it may help.

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

You could try to find some of the rubber balls and force in the hollow points to keep them from plugging up. If they plug on impact they won't open.

With that thick jacket or plating it may help.

It's a bit hard to explain, but I designed the cavity to allow for a plug of fabric.

 

[magyars4]

Well done and creative!
Let's see how they do in life testing......

 

[entropy]

Homemade Flying Ashtrays! Slick!

 

[JJFitch]

Up your game and get some ballistic gel and do some gel testing. A vid would be interesting.

Your next gig could be bullet maker!

That vid could make you some $$ on You-Tube!

Smiles,

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Up your game and get some ballistic gel and do some gel testing. A vid would be interesting.

Your next gig could be bullet maker!

That vid could make you some $$ on You-Tube!

Smiles,

Expensive or a PITA... but I'll consider it.

 

[murf]

"tinker" is a good middle name for you. well done.

luck,

murf

 

[mdi]

I too have considered gel as a test medium, but cost is a bit high, and do-it-yourself is too involved for three or four shots. I've seen "meat targets" which might be cheaper than gel and the old stand by, water filled plastic jugs (and often said to be a good test medium). Back when I was playing with SD, "rapid expanding" home made bullets I used wet newsprint. But in reality it just told me how my bullets performed in wet newsprint...

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

OK, nice little range trip today, and it's mostly good news for accuracy. Mostly.

Trying the 125gr XTP (9mm Mod) was first. Mt test gun was a Beretta M1951E. I shot everything rapid-fire at seven yards initially because I was more interested in seeing if the bullets flew straight than ultimate accuracy. First the standard XTPs:


About what I expected. Moved on to the modifed XTP with this result-


Not good. Bullets yawing and key-holing all over the place. These are obviously a no-go. Last i tried the modified Xtreme 115gr JHPs-


Looking good! I'll need to do expansion tests on these next. Moving on to the 125gr. XTP (.38 Special mod with a broader, deeper cavity,) shooting rapid fire five-shot strings at seven yards, through both the 3" K-frame and 3" Astra Police-

OK, everything flew straight and matched what passes for accuracy for me. I had three left after these tests so I reeled a target out to 25 yards and fired them double action, taking my time this time.

Not going to win any prizes, but three shots in a bit less than three inches at 25 yards will do, even if the group was a bit high and left.

So it looks like the 115gr. Xtreme 9mmMod and the 125 XTP .38Mod will be moving on to expansion tests. Stay tuned...

 

[LiveLife]

Thanks for the update.

Look forward to the expansion test.

 

[forrest r]

I like wet pack better then gel myself, not only is it cheaper (free) it really tests the design/strength/elasticity of the hp or any bullet in general. Wet pack ='s 12" bundles of newspaper taped together and put in a cooler and water added. Let sit over night and take the cooler to the range the next day. Pull a bundle out and staple a target on the wet pack and test for accuracy and expansion at the same time.

Started casting in 1985 and swaging in 1990, made a lot of hp's over the years for several different calibers. Made a lot of different hp pin designs, nose forming dies with removable hp pins along with permanent pins. Actually sold 2 presses and 20+ swaging dies last year, just don't use them that much anymore.

When I want to hp something or change the hp in a hp bullet I use a forester hp tool with either the 1/16" bit, 1/8" bit or a 5/32" 60* center point bit. The last forester trimmer I bought off e-bay for $50 delivered and it came with bushings/plugs to trim 223's.308's/44spl & mags and had the 1/16" & 1/8" hp tools. Wanted it to be a dedicated setup for the 223's, already had the hp tooling.

Glad to see your making and testing you own designs. You might consider using a 223 rem fl sizing die to make 9mm hp's and a 222rem fl sizing die for .357" bullets. Either make or use a lee stem from their push thru sizing dies and unscrew the decapping rod out of the die and use that hole for you hp pins. These bullets were final formed in a 222rem fl die for the 357.


Anyway good to see people trying different things, good luck and good luck.

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Thanks Forrest R. I actually used a 9mm de-capping/sizing die with my home-made pin, and that seemed to do the job nicely. I need to look for some proper swaging dies; I have one for .45 caliber but not for .38 or 9mm.

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Good Lord! I paid ten bucks for the used .45 swaging die at my LGS... but on the market these things cost a fortune. Relative to my income, anyway. .223 and .222 dies here I come... time to make my own... and figure out which die to use for .310-.312 bullets for .32...

 

[Jim Rau]

Thanks for the update.

Look forward to the expansion test.

Roger that! Remember, penetration is more important than expansion. If it don't get to the 'important parts' the expansion is a waste!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Remember the old saying, "A 9mm may expand, but a .45 will never shrink."

My Kimber loves semi-wadcutters, and that is a fine defensive load you can cast for yourself..

 

[LiveLife]

Remember, penetration is more important than expansion. If it don't get to the 'important parts' the expansion is a waste!

Ideally, you want expansion AND penetration to reach vital organs/arteries to cause enough hemodynamic damage to drop blood pressure which ultimately slows blood flow to the brain enough for the target to stop attacking/shooting.

Without expansion of 9mm projectile, we essentially have FMJ/RN performance and there are plenty of testing data that demonstrated HP projectiles with expansion and penetration did more damage and hence why we use HP bullets for defensive purposes.

And for home, it is why we replaced pistols with 16" 9mm carbines as primary defensive weapons as adding 150-200 fps more to the muzzle velocities pushes the ballistics of 9mm projectile closer to .357 Magnum ballistics (And I subscribe to the notion that same diameter HP projectile driven closer to .357 Magnum velocities do more damage than 9mm velocities while undergoing maximum expansion).

.38/.357 125gr XTP... looking at those bullets was like looking back in time to the '80's, when hollow point bullets were unreliable.

Maybe I could do a little something to improve these bullets ... soon producing spiff, effective-looking hollow-point bullets from the throwback XTPs ... deeper cavity ... looks like it will expand at .38 Special velocities ... something over 900 fps

Your original premise of the thread was to improve the 80s looking HP bullet to expand at .38 Special velocity of 900 fps+. Question is, will greater expansion reduce penetration, especially around 900 fps? If you have good expansion, I prefer to have the bullet moving a bit faster for greater penetration.

Xtreme JHP ... I suspect that they'll expand reasonably too, with the already thin 'jacket' stretched even thinner. Need to come up with some reasonable tests for all of these. Can't really afford to spring for a gel set up just now.

X-Treme HP bullets are "thicker plated" bullets and not rated for "defensive round" to me meaning they are not likely to expand reliably, especially if made with harder 15/18 BHN lead alloy as indicated on their website - https://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-Load-Info-s/1952.htm

"All Hollow Points are Heavy Plate Concave Base but are not designed to be used as a defense round"​

And since plating is not thick as gilding metal thickness of typical JHP bullets, if X-Treme HP bullets do expand, expanded petals may break off/fragment ... I guess testing will show how the bullet will perform but my guess is that they undergo minimal expansion - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ng-at-25-50-yards.808446/page-3#post-10470195

And lacking gel testing, you can start with shooting bullets into box of water lined with plastic bag to measure penetration and expansion (At least in water).

 

[forrest r]

Thanks Forrest R. I actually used a 9mm de-capping/sizing die with my home-made pin, and that seemed to do the job nicely. I need to look for some proper swaging dies; I have one for .45 caliber but not for .38 or 9mm.

What the 222rem & 223rem dies bring to the table is they keep the diameter of the bullets .355" & .357" respectively. This keeps the bullets round and centered. No more key holes or decreased penetration from the bullets nutation being affected by off center hp's. Several years ago I did testing with swaged jacketed 145gr bullets using a 6" bbl'd 357mag. I used the same load and purposely made the hp hole in the bullets canted. Those bullets went from penetrating 9"'s of wet pack with a strait hp hole to 5"'s with a 15* canted hp hole using the same hp pin for both bullets.

The 222 & 223 dies are also adjustable so that you can make the nose of the bullet wide od down to a 1/4". If you lok at the picture I posted earlier you will see that those 175gr bullets have a wfn nose and the hp's have a long skinny nose. The shape/width/depth of the hp affects how the hp performs at different velocities. Same bullet cast with different hp pins. The penta points do their best with 8/9bhn alloy and 800 to 1000fps. While the small round hp's need 12/13bhn alloy and 1200fps+


My hi-tech 32cal swaging dies.


Made them to convert the lee 95gr rn .312" bullet to a .314" hbwc using either a arbor press or a hammer. I had a 95gr wc mold and wanted to test the hbwc's before buying a 4-cavity 32cal hbwc mold. Nothing more than a couple pieces of scrap round stock, a bolt and a washer and around 1 hours time on the lathe.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

My experience is that home made hollow points may or may not work on deer. When shot into a Fackler box or drum of water there seems to be a critical velocity range -- faster or slower doesn't work, you have to get the velocity just right.

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

My hi-tech 32cal swaging dies.
View attachment 929805

Made them to convert the lee 95gr rn .312" bullet to a .314" hbwc using either a arbor press or a hammer. I had a 95gr wc mold and wanted to test the hbwc's before buying a 4-cavity 32cal hbwc mold. Nothing more than a couple pieces of scrap round stock, a bolt and a washer and around 1 hours time on the lathe.

Looks a lot like some of my high-tech swage set-ups. The .223 full-length sizing die is on the way.

 

[longdayjake]

If you want to send some to me, I have a bunch of Gel blocks for testing our HP in.

 

[LiveLife]

If you want to send some to me, I have a bunch of Gel blocks for testing our HP in.

Nice.

 

[Jim Rau]

Ideally, you want expansion AND penetration to reach vital organs/arteries to cause enough hemodynamic damage to drop blood pressure which ultimately slows blood flow to the brain enough for the target to stop attacking/shooting.

Without expansion of 9mm projectile, we essentially have FMJ/RN performance and there are plenty of testing data that demonstrated HP projectiles with expansion and penetration did more damage and hence why we use HP bullets for defensive purposes.

And for home, it is why we replaced pistols with 16" 9mm carbines as primary defensive weapons as adding 150-200 fps more to the muzzle velocities pushes the ballistics of 9mm projectile closer to .357 Magnum ballistics (And I subscribe to the notion that same diameter HP projectile driven closer to .357 Magnum velocities do more damage than 9mm velocities while undergoing maximum expansion).


Your original premise of the thread was to improve the 80s looking HP bullet to expand at .38 Special velocity of 900 fps+. Question is, will greater expansion reduce penetration, especially around 900 fps? If you have good expansion, I prefer to have the bullet moving a bit faster for greater penetration.


X-Treme HP bullets are "thicker plated" bullets and not rated for "defensive round" to me meaning they are not likely to expand reliably, especially if made with harder 15/18 BHN lead alloy as indicated on their website - https://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-Load-Info-s/1952.htm

"All Hollow Points are Heavy Plate Concave Base but are not designed to be used as a defense round"​

And since plating is not thick as gilding metal thickness of typical JHP bullets, if X-Treme HP bullets do expand, expanded petals may break off/fragment ... I guess testing will show how the bullet will perform but my guess is that they undergo minimal expansion - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ng-at-25-50-yards.808446/page-3#post-10470195

And lacking gel testing, you can start with shooting bullets into box of water lined with plastic bag to measure penetration and expansion (At least in water).

Why did you quote me??? You said what I said. But the key world in your post is 'ideally'. That don't change the fact that penetration is MORE important than expansion. That is why I said I would like to see the 'expansion' part of this test/thread before I would agree or disagree with the modified bullets.

 

[LiveLife]

The whole point of the thread is improving expansion of OP's modified bullets.

So OP's effort is not a "waste" of time.

Sure, it is nice to have both penetration and expansion but the focus of this thread is expansion performance of OP's modified bullets.

It would be nice if OP could send some modified bullets to Jake/RMR so gelatin block test could be done.