Bad guys, police and armed citizens

[Duke of Doubt]

mbt2001, you are very perceptive to point out that police pursue fleeing felons, while citizens need not, usually cannot (legally or otherwise), and generally do not so pursue.

About twenty years ago a local officer was ambushed in the woods after pursing a fleeing felon. The perp executed him after ambushing and outshooting him with a .44 magnum. The officer was carrying a .357 magnum loaded with .38 special target rounds, which load he exhausted in combat. This event led to the affected department and others nearby replacing their revolvers with 9mm and .40 autoloaders. I disagree with that decision, but it is what it is. The REAL change that ought to have been made, and eventually it was made under new leadership, was ambush avoidance and scene control training.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

The intensity of these situations and the people who live this life need to be understood.


ain't that the truth!

kinda like the difference between the beagle and the rabbit. the beagle is running for fun or at most a meal the rabbit runs for his life

 

[Ben86]

Airsoft is not the best training tool. However it is inexpensive and readily available. It can make a few universal truths of gun combat very clear to the ignorant. It is also much fun and safe when you wear a paintball type mask. The most you get are welps. Which I appreciate because it creates a painful price for failure to dominate my enemy.

Airsoft shows the average video gamer junky, matrix lover that it is both difficult to hit your opponent and not to get hit in the process while someone is shooting at you. And getting clean COM CNS hits? Seriously difficult.

You aren't going to be able to count you rounds. And you will appreciate having as much ammo as you can comfortably carry.

Airsoft can lead to minor misconceptions, like thick bushes being cover. Real bullets shoot further and more accurately. But as a whole it has a lot to offer the average beginner.

Even in nature animals simulate combat with one another to learn basic truths.

 

[TooTaxed]

As long as we're on this, I'd like the benefit of any experience you may have on the following:

Dad...who had had combat experience...told me that if I found myself in a situation where the bad guy had the drop on me and was about to fire...fire yourself in order to shake him up and perhaps cause a miss...and immediately make your second shot count.

Obviously this won't work all the time, but what's your experience?

 

[ezenbrowntown]

Thanks to all for the information. Statistics are just what they are, you can't read too deep into them. Does it make sense that bad guys have a better hit rate? Sure. I'm sure whoever shoots first is going to have the higher percentage of hits.

On the whole training effectiveness/ineffectiveness, it is what it is. Does repeated practice and training various ways make you a better shooter? Sure. Will it guarantee success in a confrontation? Nope.

Take a basketball player. He practices shot after shot for days/weeks/months/years. He works on different moves. He plays against other players to practice getting open, shooting over people, etc. Does it make him a better shooter? Of course. Does it guarantee a made shot with a guy in his face and the game on the line? Nope. However, does it give him a better chance of making the shot? Yes. So ask yourself the question, with everything at stake in your life, which guy would you want to while shooting the shot? a. The guy who has practiced and practiced. b. A guy who has shot a basketball in the backyard a few times a year.

So take that for what's it's worth. I'm not personally going to buy the delusion that I can somehow go through enough training to make my survival certain. I prepare to increase my odds, just like the practicing basketball player does.

 

[Old Guy]

Theres competition in tiddly winks, too.

Now that was funny!

I shoot IDPA, it is fun, and just in matches I most likely shoot around 1200 rounds per year, used to go to the range once a week as well, maybe an other 5000 or so. The same exact model of pistol that I carry, same trigger and sights. And the same holster and mag pouch, even on some occasions, the same cover garment. Makes for smooth gun handling, and that's all!

#1 My actual experience in fighting, I got in fighting.

I look everybody in the eye, I am always a very pleasant, happy old guy.

BUT! a big one, re #1 above, I can change in a heart beat to the older, a bit slower fighter I have always been (more so for a threat to my Wife than one towards me) but now with an extra layer of tools, a gun and bullets! (knife as well) not being in an environment anymore that triggers violence to a person, does not mean that with the correct trigger it does not instantly become available.

A five year slice of violent encounters behind me (job) there have been several times that violence has erupted, and been dealt with, with me or mine not being hurt in any way, bottom line really.

 

[viperstarbuck]

For my Criminal Justice degree, i did several forms of "Force" training regarding firearms. first we did airsoft, to demonstrate the fact that the students could safely handle a simulated "weapon". then we did alot of training on the FATS Machine, which presented various scenarios and fairly realistic weapons handling via "shooting" at the screen presented threats. these were both good for "shoot/no shoot" and basic safe handling. we then went to the range and shot live there, many times. airsoft was then use for "force on force" training. While these are not the end all beat all, for a college budget and limited time, it was pretty effective in establishing the basics of gun safety, carry, sight use, marksmanship, and limited force on force. The point being, that air soft ALONE is indeed not enough, but combined with other methods of training, can be near invaluable.

 

[delta789]

Well...let's give the simmuitions/airsoft training a scrutiny. I've participated in both multiple times, and with "weaponry" that was 100% imitation gear and at FPS that drew blood. It's very exciting, but it lacks a very, very vital seriousness that a real firefight has. In airsoft, we can all be very serious, but then all of a sudden someone creates a "Zombie team" that does suicidal attacks and whose members do not fall down when mutiple clips of 6mm plastic bb's are emptied into them. That's where the "simulation" fails to simulate. I have been shot at with live ammo, and believe me, that's an ENTIRELY different feeling than the adrenaline rush of a paintball/airsoft game. Yes, by all means go out and practice at the range. Play paintball. But unless you experience real combat on a regular basis you may never reach the level of prowness a veteran criminal may posess. Just try to be #1 on the draw and don't stop shooting till 1. Bad falls over or 2. You run out of ammo or 3. Both of the above.

 

[Jeff White]

delta789,
You have just explained the difference between playing and training. While no engagement simulator can exactly replicate real combat, properly planned, resourced and conducted force on force training can be of immense value. If someone created a zombie team then at that point you stopped training and started playing.

You have to go to other activities to get the adrenalin, search stress inoculation for some threads on that.

A proper training program includes mechanical training, marksmanship training, manipulation, force on force and stress inoculation. All of the skills are perishable and it's a continuous process.

 

[Bo_Nidle]

As a Police officer myself I think I can shed a little light on the reasons why Police officers hesitate when the necessity to use force arises. My experience does not involve my use of firearms as I am a UK officer and thus not armed but I think it may still be relevant.

It really comes down to the mindset of the individual. As an officer you have a mountain of rules dictating your responses. Break those rules and the sanctions can be severe.

As an offender you have no such restrictions. Arrest and imprisonment are occupational hazards for criminals and as they invariably only look 3 seconds ahead they are of little or no consequence to them.

Police officers tend to look far ahead in relation to incidents. It is this that slows down or lessens an officers reactions. Add to this the fact that they may have never had to resort to the level of force that could take a life and you have a storm of emotions running through their head.

The criminal has invariably got a clearer thought path-escape. It is like an animals instinct and requires very few complex thought patterns.

An officers prior experience in such incidents is crucial. In the study referred to what percentage of the officers who were more efficient under stress had been in similar incidents before?

Heres a couple of personal examples:

1/ I had about 5 years service in. A quiet Sunday summers afternoon. I respond to a domestic disturbance call. On arrival I speak to the woman who is upset but uninjured. Her male partner had left prior to my arrival. I decide to go and see if he is about. As I walk to my car I see the male who is known to me from other incidents. I walk towards him. He is only wearing shorts and training shoes. I try to talk to him but he blanks me and goes to walk past. I take hold of his arm and at this point he produces a steel lump hammer and threatens to "smash my head in". My only piece of defensive equipment is a 22" nylon baton which I draw and step back telling him to put it down. His reaction is to then reach into his shorts and produce a large lock knife. He charges me, I back pedal raising the baton. He stops and we face off. after a few back and forth advances he turns and begins to walk towards his house. At this point I could have struck him to the back of his head and brought the incident to a conclusion. But, and heres my point, I didn't. Why? Because all I could think of was how much trouble I could get in. Luckily other patrols arrived and he surrendered. That incident and my lack of decisive action always troubled me for years after.

2/ Fast forward to 10 years later. I respond to a call from an ambulance crew who have been called to a house where an amphetamine addict is going nuts. They will not attend without the Police. I arrive and can see the male in the house running around attacking members of his family. I walk down the path and I'm halfway to the door when it flies open and the offender comes charging out at me, hunched over, screaming in rage incoherently and carrying a kitchen knife with a 10" blade. I'm in serious S**T! I run backwards shouting a warning to the medics and my Sergeant, (who ran off with the medics, but thats another story!) Offender is bearing down on me so I discharge my C.S. spray ( which had just started to be issued) in his face, no effect. I'm now out on the street, I need distance so I run with offender still bearing down on me. I realised I was not going to outrun this individual who was about 15 years younger than me so I made the calculated decision to stand and fight. I drew my baton turned and let him come to me. He didn't slow down. I side stepped right and at the same time aimed a blow at his head which struck him about 1" behind his left ear. His momentum carried him past me and he went flat on his face.. I was then able to restrain and handcuff him.

My point here is that it was the experience gained from that first incident (together with uncountable violent incidents in the years that followed it) that enabled me to be able to think clearly, formulate a rapid plan of action, and carry it out efficiently. I also had no qualms about trying to take his head off any more. If the first incident occurred today then it would end far sooner.

Experience counts. Unfortunately it's something you never have until after you needed it!

(Both of the above offenders admitted in interview that they intended to kill me. They were both sentenced to 18 months in prison but both were back out after 9 months)

 

[Prion]

The biggest change in my mindset came from simply living in a big bad city. Not a nice suburb of a city or the worst ghetto, just downtown or in a half decent neighbohood in a large city. Previously I'd always lived in the country or in towns that were fairly safe. Six years in a gritty urban environment and I was a different person. Now back in the woods where I belong that experience has stayed with me. I know that is not an option for everyone but I think those who have lived in or are living in one know what I mean.

 

[Bakeneko]

A proper training program includes mechanical training, marksmanship training, manipulation, force on force and stress inoculation. All of the skills are perishable and it's a continuous process.

This seems to sum up the situation nicely.

We all know that there are limitations to airsoft. If you use airsoft game rules, you are not training.

But you can use it to do things you can't do with live firearms. And if you balance it with as many other forms of training, you will be better off than if you didn't use it at all. You just have to avoid the type of training mindset that goes "because I am skilled in 'X' simulation of combat, I will do well in combat." Many folks that add a lot of competition tend to build up that type of mindset.

Reality of course is nothing like any simulation of combat. We can only prepare ourselves so far. That does not mean we should not train as well as we can with simulations.

 

[Old Guy]

Bo Nidel,

I worked 5 years as a "Doorman" in the clubs in Liverpool, 4 at the Cavern, 1960 till 64, 1 at the Blue Angel on Seal St.

I got stabbed on two occasions, I very soon learned instant responce... INSTANT, no thought, no double guessing, just go.

This was Thu/Fri/Sat night part time job, young Family, owned my own house, my Wife did not work outside the home.

Those five years was the most instructive five years in my life, I taught firearms for 25 years (now 73) teaching the new age Officers, Public or Private? Brought up in the don't hit Johnny Schools? Tough to get their attention on teaching things like the head butt (Liverpool Kiss) when your hands and arms are immobilized.

You guys are heros going out with no Glock 9mm's every day. God Bless.

Keep Safe.

 

[mercop]

Old Guy, I guess you got pretty good at seeing one think and knowing what was going to happen next and heading things off at the pass.

 

[Old Guy]

The evidence is on my face! A straight nose!

 

[TooTaxed]

You've brought up something important. It really pays to be familiar with body language!