Bail opposed in case of mail-order weapons

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Rusher

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http://www.interordnance.com/



Bail opposed in case of mail-order weapons
9,500 machine guns seized, according to jury indictment
EMILY S. ACHENBAUM AND GARY L. WRIGHT
Staff Writers

MONROE - Prosecutors hope to persuade a federal magistrate to hold a Union County man without bond pending his trial on charges of importing and selling thousands of Russian and Soviet machine guns.

A detention hearing for Ulrich Wiegand, 34, charged in an 83-count indictment unsealed Thursday, is set for Tuesday.

His brother, Oliver Wiegand, 37, facing the same charges, remains out of the country but is scheduled to make his first appearance in federal court on Tuesday.

Federal authorities seized more than 9,500 machine guns in a search of the Wiegand brothers' federally licensed Monroe gun dealership, Inter Ordnance of America, the indictment said. More than 3,500 other machine guns have been sold nationwide, the indictment said.

Prosecutors say that the Wiegands, using their businesses in Witten, Germany, and Ferlach, Austria, illegally imported the guns, selling them in parts kits without background checks or recording ownership registration, prosecutors said.

Assistant U.S. Attorney David Brown said at least two customers who purchased the machine guns have been charged with illegal possession of the firearms.

The investigation is continuing, Brown said, and agents with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives are trying to recover the weapons that were sold.

"We're trying to find out where these guns are," Brown said. "Our primary objective is to recover these machine guns and get them off the streets.

"We're not interested in prosecuting innocent purchasers. But if we find these guns being used in criminal activity we're going to prosecute."

Charlotte lawyer Chris Fialko, who represents Oliver Wiegand, has said his client denies wrongdoing and that Wiegand and Inter Ordnance have tried to comply with "vague" ATF guidelines.

Inter Ordnance got a license from the city of Monroe to sell firearms in 1998. The brothers, identified by authorities as German nationals, worked out of a large, unmarked two-story warehouse on Westwood Industrial Drive. They sold the guns over the Internet and by mail, prosecutors said.

The indictment, a result of a two-year investigation, alleges the brothers "reaped a substantial financial profit" from the sales and used the money to "further their firearms importation business" and to "support their extravagant personal lifestyles."

The brothers' last known addresses are at attractive but average-size family homes in Union County subdivisions. The Wiegands are familiar to others in the local firearms community.

Duane Davis, owner of Elite Custom Plating & Weaponry in Monroe, said he went to the Wiegands' warehouse about a year ago, hoping to find clients for his gun refurbishing business. He arrived to find at least a dozen uniformed ATF agents in the warehouse. When he asked what was going on, an employee told him it was a routine ATF inspection, Davis said. But when the agents asked Davis why he was there, and he told them, they showed him out.

In the indictment, Ulrich Wiegand is also accused of directing employees to structure cash deposits in amounts less than $10,000 to avoid reporting requirements.

Both brothers are charged with money laundering.

Charges against each brother carry maximum penalties totaling 960 years in prison.
 
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"We're not interested in prosecuting innocent purchasers. But if we find these guns being used in criminal activity we're going to prosecute."
Since even owning a machine gun is a crime, what they are really saying there is "let us know if you bought a gun from Inter Ordnance so we can come prosecute you."
 
The indictment, a result of a two-year investigation, alleges the brothers "reaped a substantial financial profit" from the sales and used the money to "further their firearms importation business" and to "support their extravagant personal lifestyles."

So, does the ATF now police life styles? How come they haven't busted Hugh Hefner? :rolleyes:
 
The next operative machine gun that the Wiegands sold and the ATF finds will probably be the first.

I don't like Interordnance, but now I'm beginning to wonder about the amount of effort (two year investigation??) put in to arrest someone for using a saw instead of a torch to destroy the receiver on a parts kit.

And why do I suspect the guns were not actually full-auto capable?

The guns weren't even capable of being assembled unless you welded the saw cut receiver back together.

The problem is that ATF regulations state that the receivers must be torch cut with the torch set to displace at least 1/4 inch of metal.

I guess it makes it harder for Joe Blow to reweld the receiver and make a functional machine gun.
 
Saying that I/O shipped "machine guns" is hyperbole, unless they shipped something other than what we recieved. The FAL parts kit my husband bought from them had two receiver stubs, with the center section missing. It was quite starting to find out from the BATFE that we owned a "machine gun", and that Mr. Agent would like to have a chat with my husband about his machine gun. Quite an eye-opener...
 
According to the thread at gunboards.com, someone (Century) re-assembled one of these with hoseclamps and JB Weld and got it to function (for how long?).

As to no records being kept - that rings hollow with the reports of purchasers receiving BATF visits.

I despise I/O, but this is bogus and seems like a self-justification for chair-warming bureaucrats and the gun-grabbers who wish to control the firearms industry by driving dealers, manufacturers and importers out-of-business.
 
What makes me wonder is how they were imported into the US and got by the ATF in the first place? I'm sure there had to be a good amount of papework involving the ATF and the US Customs prior to the weapons arriving in country.


I guess what really makes me sick is the way the article is written. It makes you think they were selling complete and operational machine guns to the general public. This simply isn't true.

Good Shooting
Red
 
In the indictment, Ulrich Wiegand is also accused of directing employees to structure cash deposits in amounts less than $10,000 to avoid reporting requirements.
can someone give an explanation of this law? I remember hearing about it somewhere else a while ago. Doesn't it basically say that if you make cash deposits above $10,000 you can be investigated, but if you make deposits under $10,000, you can be arrested for trying not to be investigated? If so, I hope they don't find out about the $600 I deposited in my checking account today:rolleyes:
 
I guess it makes it harder for Joe Blow to reweld the receiver and make a functional machine gun.

Absolutely...having watched our techs legally reactivate a torch cut Bren and a Lahti Anti tank gun that were torch cut/ dewatted per ATF specs I can assure you that the average Joe Blow aint gonna do it, unless he is a precision welder...

On the other hand, I can also assure you that while we havent done it, our bluing room boy could reactivate some of the saw cut stuff Ive seen...

Its also my understanding the IO imported and sold a number of Russian maxims that were so poorly "deactivated" that they would run simply after being assembled.

All righteous indignation aside, scumbags like the IO guys make it harder on those of us who sweat over reams of paperwork, who read and follow all the tech bulletins, and who bend over backwards to the point of being jerks to stay squeaky clean. Maybe the Feds would be more relaxed about everything if idiots like IO werent ruining it for the rest of us...then again, its idiots like them who keep the Feds so busy that they stay out of our butts...

WildimhoAlaska
 
Spare parts and dummy display guns...

But undoubtedly, some people use to make illegal weapons...fortunately is not as easy as some people think, unfortuneately not as hard as some pople think..


WildstenscometomindAlaska
 
What is the purpose of these "kits" if not to assemble illegal guns? What does one do with one of these other than try to rebuild it? Am I missing something?
Should it matter? Why should the BATFE even be allowed to decide what a machine gun really is? 3 pieces of hacked up metal that would require some good welding work and alot of know-how in assembly is all of the sudden a machine gun? A fully assembled semi-automatic AK-47 that would only require a couple extra holes drilled out and a slight change to the trigger group isn't a machine gun?
 
Wild, I know what you mean, but I can't agree. It is surely more prudent and more logical to do it your way, but I don't see anything dishonorable or disreputable about selling weapons (even fully automatic weapons) to the average citizen of this nation rather than only to the privileged few.

I realize that isn't going to save the Wiegands, who are almost undoubtedly headed to prison, and I know it's not the majority view and therefore, in today's America, stands no chance of being implemented. But that doesn't change the reality that laws like the ones the Wiegands apparently broke do not enhance public safety. At the same time, they abridge individual rights. There's no upside. And frankly, people like you are only keeping yourselves out of trouble (not that staying out of prison isn't an important consideration! ) not making the world safer for anyone by obeying those laws.

IO is not making your life harder. The federal government is making your life harder. Their motivations for doing so, at least at the policy level, have nothing to do with "idiots like these." You're just a convenient bogeyman they can use to buy votes by "DOING SOMETHING!"
 
Perfectly legal firearms can be made with these kits. By using semi-auto receivers the parts can be reassembled legally.

I think the problem for IO was that the machine gun receivers were not demilled per ATF spec, even though ATF originally approved of them being imported, or so I've heard.
 
IO is not making your life harder. The federal government is making your life harder. Their motivations for doing so, at least at the policy level, have nothing to do with "idiots like these." You're just a convenient bogeyman they can use to buy votes by "DOING SOMETHING!"

AMEN!
 
I think the problem for IO was that the machine gun receivers were not demilled per ATF spec, even though ATF originally approved of them being imported, or so I've heard.

Do these kits get imported as complete guns and the importer then has to demil them, or are they demilled first and then imported?


Globaltrades is selling Polish PMKMS parts kits that they claim were test fired prior to dismantling.

Please Note: These rifles have been in storage for over 20 years. Please expect minor dings from storage and dismantling. These kits are not saw-cut or torch-cut, but professionally dismantled. No part of the sheet metal is included.....there is no risk of these being considered illegal machine guns!
 
IO is not making your life harder. The federal government is making your life harder. Their motivations for doing so, at least at the policy level, have nothing to do with "idiots like these." You're just a convenient bogeyman they can use to buy votes by "DOING SOMETHING!"

Agreed but the fact remains is that we (ie those under the thumb) have no choice....and those who break the rules make it harder on us all.....


To a certain extent the average Joe Blow is lucky...he can go grab a piece of muffle pipe and a sten kit and away he goes...on the other hand when ya are subject to insepction, ya gots to follow their rules...

And its all a joke..I was a character refernce for a pilot who is getting a suppressor...the interviewer (here in Alaska your refernces get checked, then the Chief sings off, then the ATF gets it) asked me if I thought that the posession of a silencer or machine gun by this guy would be a danger to the public safety..I told her that if this guy wanted to affect the public safety, hew ouldnt be filling out his paperwork, he would be crqashing a 747 into downtown Anchorage...She started laughing and agreed that the whole process was rediculous, but hey, thats what we got to do...


WilddownwiththeNFAAlaska
 
alleges the brothers "reaped a substantial financial profit" from the sales and used the money to "further their firearms importation business"
and to "support their extravagant personal lifestyles."
is also accused of directing employees to structure cash deposits in amounts less than $10,000 to avoid reporting requirements.

So... if a businessman is making a profit, and using that profit to grow their business, and using the proceeds of their work to live an "extravagant... lifestyle" and depositing money in sums of less that $10,000... then it's okay for the gubmint to go after him.

Sounds like a case of "if I can't have it, you can't either" to me.

But then, what do I know, I'm just a peon.

:barf: :fire: :barf: :mad: :barf: :cuss: :barf:

Regardless of whether these guys are slime or upstanding people, I am disgusted with the BATFE or whoever it was that even allowed statements like these to be made.

This seems to me to be just a continuation of what I'm hearing from the Demoratic Presidential candidates. "Let's make the rich pay their fair share."

What a crock of BS!

It's their money! If they were cheating on taxes, we'd be hearing about the IRS being involved. The press and certain parts of gubmint are really kicking up the process of demonizing people who are successful in life. I reminds me an awful lot like ow handguns started to be demonized in the early 70s. I'm sad to think that this country is going to communistic in it's philosophy by the time my grandkids are old enough to vote.

Are we there yet?

DAMN, but this p***es me off!

(edited three times to fix mistakes 'cause I was too mad to see straight!)
 
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