Ballistic fingerprints

[8Balls]

I was watching CSI today and it got me thinking: How easy it is to change weapons fingerprints so that crime lab could not tie your gun with the crime. (Guns are expensive, you know. I'd probably get caught because i just couldn't get rid of the murder weapon... ) So, if you dont have time to pick up empty casings, you probably need to (polish, sand) extractor, tip of the firingpin and perhaps do something with the chamber. And the barrel. Would it be enough to just put one patch of steel wool through the barrel couple of times or does it more drastic measures? Any other detail to think/do? And what if you use shotgun? Or .22 with (soft?) lead bullets?

Disclaimer: Im not about to shoot anyone...

 

[Kurush]

I wonder what would happen if you buffed the copper off of a steel jacketed bullet, case hardened it, and then reloaded it. I guess either the rifling would be severely worn or the bullet would get stuck and kB big time. Or maybe I should go to bed.

 

[Medusa]

What I've heard even same gun doesn't give a same pattern on bullets all the time, but varies alot and way out of acceptable error limit. There was a thread on topic CSI and ballistic fingerprints up here some time ago.

CSI is total crap, once i noticed a shooting trial with 9mm pistol, and wonder-wonder, in water there was rifle-round-shaped (looked much like my 5.56) bullet. How come? FiveseveN has distinctive profile, rifle doesn't look like a ordinary pistol.

 

[Crosshair]

All of the ID marks can be changed with a hand file.

Barrel - 10 Seconds
Chamber - 10 Seconds (60 if it's a 6-shooter. )
Firing Pin - 10 Seconds
Extractor - 10 Seconds
Bolt face - Don't reakky need to do this one, but just rub it with some steel wool.

 

[DunedinDragon]

All of the ID marks can be changed with a hand file.

Barrel - 10 Seconds
Chamber - 10 Seconds (60 if it's a 6-shooter. )
Firing Pin - 10 Seconds
Extractor - 10 Seconds
Bolt face - Don't reakky need to do this one, but just rub it with some steel wool.

OOOPS...don't forget to get rid of the hand file and the steel wool and any residual shavings that might be left around, and the vacuum cleaner bag you used to clean up the shavings!!! Probably need to dump those clothes you were wearing at the time you filed the gun too. BTW, you only changed the unique characteristics of the gun, not the class characteristics.

 

[Alex45ACP]

Yeah but isn't the whole point of ballistic "fingerprinting" to be able to match a bullet to a specific gun?

 

[1911 guy]

Why it's not "fingerprinting"

Alex45ACP, The lie is to have us believe it will tie to a specific weapon. The truth is it's just a waste of money and lab time. I have spare firing pins, extractors, etc. laying around for my firearms I use on a regular basis. So if I were to commit a crime, I'd swap parts first, they'd not match any database. Then I'd go home and switch back, my pistol wouldn't match the wep useed in the crime. All this is assuming it works in the first place, which it doesn't. Constant failure is the reason New Jersey is giving up on it's program.

 

[LaEscopeta]

8Balls, I think the posts above correctly answers your original question; it is in fact easy to change the unique characteristics of a firearm, if you know what you are doing. Just like it is easy to wear gloves or put tape on finger tips to prevent leaving finger prints. But most criminals (in this country at least) do not do either, and ballistic test and finger prints are used to convict countless criminals each year.

FYI, you mentioned “weapons fingerprints”, which is a related but somewhat different issue here in the USA. Some state governments want to collect a bullet and/or casing fired from every handgun sold, and store that information in a computer database. The idea is a bullet or casing found at a crime scene can be run through the data base, to find the serial number of the gun that fired it. There are problems with this idea, most not related with the ballistic test them selves, but problems with the data base, or weather gun store owners turn in casing and bullets from the guns they say they are from. Right now at least, the problems are big enough to make ballistic fingerprinting unworkable.

But if previous threads on this board are any indication, ballistic fingerprinting will work to generate a whole lot of posts on this thread, drifting far, far away from your original question.

 

[Car Knocker]

DunedinDragon,

No need to get rid of all that stuff. Working on a firearm is not, at this point, illegal.

 

[pax]

To change the ballistic "fingerprint," all you really have to do is fire the gun. With every shot, tiny new scratches are gradually added and old ones are slowly worn away. After enough rounds have gone through the gun, the old "fingerprint" is erased and there's a new "fingerprint" in its place.

As others have noted above, to change the "fingerprint" deliberately takes only a minute or two, and is easily accomplished.

That's why I say it's not a "fingerprint" at all. It's a freaking hairstyle.

Even if you don't change it deliberately (getting a haircut or a perm = swapping out barrels or extractors), it's going to change over time anyway (hair growth or greying or going bald = erosion of old marks or creation of new ones).

Keeping a database with such malleable characteristics in it up to date is just about impossible -- and if it were done properly, it would amount to de facto gun registration, which is a hugely problematic issue in and of itself.

pax

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Guys let it pass the common sense test. You file the serial #s off the barrel and they can still get the #s off the weapon period. Ballistic fingerprinting with all of it's faults is here to stay like it or not. If you are a law abiding citizen you have nothing to worry about.

 

[rick_reno]

OOOPS...don't forget to get rid of the hand file and the steel wool and any residual shavings that might be left around, and the vacuum cleaner bag you used to clean up the shavings!!! Probably need to dump those clothes you were wearing at the time you filed the gun too. BTW, you only changed the unique characteristics of the gun, not the class characteristics.

Best thing is to do this "work" in a boat offshore, sink the boat and swim back to the mainland.

 

[mrmeval]

The barrel on my .45 has no serial number. It's not the serial number that's being discussed but the marks left on the bullet by all the parts that touch the bullet on it's way out of the gun.

Guys let it pass the common sense test. You file the serial #s off the barrel and they can still get the #s off the weapon period. Ballistic fingerprinting with all of it's faults is here to stay like it or not. If you are a law abiding citizen you have nothing to worry about.

 

[afasano]

I was watching CSI today and it got me thinking: How easy it is to change weapons fingerprints so that crime lab could not tie your gun with the crime. (Guns are expensive, you know. I'd probably get caught because i just couldn't get rid of the murder weapon... ) So, if you dont have time to pick up empty casings, you probably need to (polish, sand) extractor, tip of the firingpin and perhaps do something with the chamber. And the barrel. Would it be enough to just put one patch of steel wool through the barrel couple of times or does it more drastic measures? Any other detail to think/do? And what if you use shotgun? Or .22 with (soft?) lead bullets?

Disclaimer: Im not about to shoot anyone...

Since you're not going to shoot anyone, just for the sake of argument, there are some weapons that change barrels and uppers without any fancy tools.

 

[silverlance]

not that i'm out to shoot anyone

but if i wanted to make sure my rounds were hard to trace, I'd also make sure that every catridge in my magazine came from a different manufacturer and use a brass catcher. oh, and run around in circles firing at least 100 rounds so figuring out trajectory would be a real PITA.

ie:

wolf .223
wwb .223
sb .223
federal .223
nato .223
lc .223
fiocchi .223
cci .223
miwall .223

hah! then the CSI folks will gasp and say, OMG, there were 9 shooters!

ps: don't forget the ninja boots (20 points to anyone who gets that reference)

 

[Carl N. Brown]

A badly fouled barrel might not have any bullet to barrel
contact and thorough cleaning would completely alter
any markings left on subsequent bullets.

Firearms markings change with use, abuse, wear, tear,
erosion, corrosion, cleaning, lack of cleaning. Calling
it "ballistic fingerprint" or "ballistic DNA" is bullstuffings.

Your fingerprints and DNA do not change in your lifetime.
Ballistic markings left by a gun on a bullet or casing
change. Often, the marks that identify a gun uniquely
are accidents that have happened to the gun in the
course of its existence: a slip with a cleaning rod or
grit on a bullet.

The most useless are samples taken at the factory before
a gun is sold. That Maryland state data base has been a wa$te.

Forensic ballistics works like this: a gun in possession of a
suspect is matched to a case or bullet left at a crime scene.
Ballistic fingerprinting, ala Maryland, is a sick joke.

 

[Crosshair]

U.S.SFC_RET

Guys let it pass the common sense test. You file the serial #s off the barrel and they can still get the #s off the weapon period.

They can get the numbers back if you simply file them. If you obliterate them with a punch then there is very little they can do to recover the numbers. How it works is that when the S/N is punched into the weapon it not only changes the metal on the surface, but metal deep within the gun gets "punched" with the S/N. If you use a punch to obliterate the S/N then the "deep" copy of the S/N is destroyed as well.

If you REALLY need to destroy a gun. You can alway's rent a plasma cutter and melt it into slag. Also break into an old safe using the cutter so you have a reason to tell the cops why you rented the cutter. "Yes officer I rented that plasma cutter to get into my safe because I lost the combination and could not get into it."

Remember, about 48% of murders go unsolved.

/I'm probably going to get this thread locked.

 

[Pilgrim]

I was watching CSI today and it got me thinking: How easy it is to change weapons fingerprints so that crime lab could not tie your gun with the crime. (Guns are expensive, you know. I'd probably get caught because i just couldn't get rid of the murder weapon... ) So, if you dont have time to pick up empty casings, you probably need to (polish, sand) extractor, tip of the firingpin and perhaps do something with the chamber. And the barrel. Would it be enough to just put one patch of steel wool through the barrel couple of times or does it more drastic measures? Any other detail to think/do? And what if you use shotgun? Or .22 with (soft?) lead bullets?

Seriously. The only reason I can think of to use a firearm in a crime is to whack someone who richly deserves it.

Since there is no definitive research on just how much filing and sanding one needs to do to change the identity of a firearm, why keep the thing around? Is your freedom for the rest of your life, or your execution, worth saving a $500-$600 firearm?

Pilgrim

 

[Hypnogator]

And don't forget the magazine and feed ramp.

I recall one murder in Stuttgart we solved by matching the shell cases found at the scene (.25 ACP IIRC) with a pistol magazine recovered from the suspect's barracks room. The actual pistol was never found.

 

[VirgilCaine]

but if i wanted to make sure my rounds were hard to trace, I'd also make sure that every catridge in my magazine came from a different manufacturer and use a brass catcher. oh, and run around in circles firing at least 100 rounds so figuring out trajectory would be a real PITA.

ie:

wolf .223
wwb .223
sb .223
federal .223
nato .223
lc .223
fiocchi .223
cci .223
miwall .223

hah! then the CSI folks will gasp and say, OMG, there were 9 shooters!

ps: don't forget the ninja boots (20 points to anyone who gets that reference)

Or one shooter with nine guns?

There's a webcomic about this serial killer, butch--one of them has him switching teeth between bodies before burning them. He loves screwing with the forensics guys.

Alex45ACP, The lie is to have us believe it will tie to a specific weapon. The truth is it's just a waste of money and lab time. I have spare firing pins, extractors, etc. laying around for my firearms I use on a regular basis. So if I were to commit a crime, I'd swap parts first, they'd not match any database. Then I'd go home and switch back, my pistol wouldn't match the wep useed in the crime. All this is assuming it works in the first place, which it doesn't. Constant failure is the reason New Jersey is giving up on it's program.

And it's not illegal to buy firearm parts...buy a gun on the black market, get extra parts for it, change them out...totally new gun, as far as the ballistics is concerned.