Ballistics programs dont match actual traj.

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dennisH87

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I have used several ballistics programs to calculate the trajectory of my 60 gr. V-max bullets loaded with varget @ 3300 FPS and when i shoot the bullets on paper its not even close to the ballistics that the programs spit out. With a 200 yard zero they fall 2.5 inches @ 300 yards but all the programs say that they should fall 6.5 inches... I entered all the data in correctly and used a range finder to make sure the target was right at 200 yrs. I haven't shot my bullets through a chronograph but i loaded them to the exact powder charge that the book says so it should be aprox. the same velocity. I tired messing around with the program to see what data would have to change to get it to fall 2.5 inches at 300 yards and the target would have had to been at around 230 yards (which it wasn't) or the velocity would have to be 4500 FPS (which it isn't). What do you guys think I'm overlooking??
 
I haven't shot my bullets through a chronograph but i loaded them to the exact powder charge that the book says so it should be aprox. the same velocity.

Ah, nope. I don't know what your velocity is, but I can guarantee you it's not the same as the books. There is no substitute for a chronograph.

Don
 
ya, but still, i played with the velocity on point blank and other programs and to have the bullet fall 2.5 inches it would have to have a MV of 4500 FPS! Thats WAY too fast and i know they're not that fast.
 
nothing works better than firing 3 rounds and adjusting your scope accordingly.....
 
What's the height of your scope vs. your barrel bore axis? That can make a big difference, especially with flat shooting rounds like it sounds like you're using.

Handloads.com has a ballistic calculator that includes this option and calculates both total drop and point of impact.
 
Your ballistics program matches my Sierra infinity program as to drop @ 300 yds., 6.56 inches.

So one or both of your measurements is wrong. I suspect you are NOT to 200 yds for your zero, and NOT at 300 yards for your drop. Whatever your rangefinder is telling you is wrong, since you cannot be pushing the velocity that high. Go get a long tape measure, actually measure out your targets.

This all assumes you are shooting off a stable bench, not pulling your shots.
 
What's the height of your scope vs. your barrel bore axis? That can make a big difference, especially with flat shooting rounds like it sounds like you're using.

Z-M, the Sierra program has the scope at 1.5 inches above the bore, for a 300 yd drop of 6.56. Plugging in scope above bore measurements 2.0 gives 6.31, 2.5 inches gives drop of 6.06, 3" gives 5.81 inches.

So your point is valid, BUT still doesn't explain his discrepancy.
 
i played with that too. The scope is a shade under 1.75 inches off the center of the bore. I'm going out now to retest my previous data with the same load. I'm just not sure what the problem is.
 
Ive found the same thing using ballistics programs , they are kinda cool for getting "relative " data though , to find out which load would be the flattest shooting for example , but it is still no substitute for putting in range time .
Go shoot , have some fun and stop worrying :D
 
Shooting off a bench or sandbags?

You probably already know this, but:
All the rifle weight must be resting on the stock, not the barrel.

Make sure the barrel isn't touching anything or it can give all kinds of goofy results in POI at long range.

rcmodel
 
The ballistic #s are good so it's either your ranging to target is incorrect or your velocity is not as estimated. That's pretty much it.

NCsmitty
 
Is it a level 300 yards?

I think Jim147's explanation may be the answer... makes sense to me!

Unless he's shooting from the rim of the grand canyon to the bottom, the angle would NOT explain the error. Over a distance of 200 to 300 yards, an angle of say 30 degrees would only amount to MAYBE an inch. Yes, shooting either uphill, or downhill WILL cause you to shoot higher than the distance dictates, but the error is slight at these distances.
 
I've NEVER had a ballistic program match very closely to what happens on the range

Bullet manufacturers like to fudge BC numbers, atmospheric conditions vary and many other variables come into play for a do all ballistics program to be 100% correct. But I still find them useful as a loose guide, they're just not a replacement for range time
 
I treat ballistic calculators as a tool to get me on paper. Just like the chrono is a tool. Once your on paper, use emperical data to do your drop chart.

The BC is good for measuring deviations that stem from temperature and humidity. Air gets thinner when it gets hot and humid which changes your poi.
 
How many rounds did you fire to confirm your 200 yard zero and your 300 yd POI? If you are actually a bit high at 200 it will be exagerated at 300. Either way the gun is a total laser. :cool:
 
Unless you think apples may fall from the ground up into a tree I say they work, ballistic calculators rely on fundamentals of physics and math. There are however many areas that allow for errors and like tolerance stacking can put you far off course. Elevation, barometric pressure, temperature, humidity, wind are a few environmental factors. Make sure you have the correct ballistic coefficient, get a chronograph to eliminate that guess, shoot on a flat range when the wind isn’t blowing, and educate others when you find where the problem was.
 
If you don't know the velocity of your load then you can't accuractly assess bullet drop at 5 yards let alone 300 yards.

I have one load for my 223 with 50gr V-max bullets and VV N-133 the load is 25.2gr with CCI BR4 and win cases 25.9gr is a max load clocking 3500 fps my load in my rifle is not a max shows no signs of pressure and clocks at 3700fps. That is a big chance and I checked my loads and then loaded some more and tested again. yupp 3700fps don't know how or why but That is the speed i get with load. So you need a chrony or else you are peeing into the wind in the dark and not seeing the fact that your peeing on your feet.

I also have a 308 win 135gr SMK load that is clocking 3100 fps on the chrony. That load can even go up a few more notches.
 
How many rounds did you fire to confirm your 200 yard zero and your 300 yd POI?

I usually work in groups of three.

It may be worth mentioning here something about scopes. The reason good scopes are expensive is because you can change the elevation and windage around and expect it to be exactly where it was before you started. Are you adjusting the scope or you setting the scope for a certain distance and holding off?
 
#20 is right.

Hey There;
I you do not know your velocity this is all a guessing game.
Even the cheap chronographs work pretty good.

You can not expect the numbers to match from a book or program just because your powder charge was the same.
No two rifles shoot the same. Until you know your velocity this will remain a Mystery.
 
ya, everything that you guys said is true, and i already knew most of it, but most of the suggestions/information wouldn't throw it off that much (not by 4 inches). I'm am going to try it again at 300 yards once i find a place to shoot. I was shooting out into the field behind my house and you have about 1000 yards before you get to the woods but now the field has soybeans in it so i cant put a target out there and still see it over the beans. (there is a slight hill)

I was shooting from a bench with a sand bag. The group at 300 yards could have fit into the diameter of a baseball so my shooting wasn't too bad. I shot 3 rounds.

I need to get a chrony. Anyone got one to sell for cheap?
 
Ballistic programs do not take into account barrel condition,rifle weight , stock design, or temp and humidity, altitude, unless entered and reconfigured ,etc.etc. in other words thay are strictly programs or mathematic tables and are not connected to known conditions.

The ballistic computers (that at one time were humans with pencils) were originally designed for artillery, cannons, howitzers, where the exact weight ,recoil characteristics,etc. were known factors, and the projectiles would follow the mathematical data.

By the way you can buy a Shooting Chrony F1 basic chronograph for less than 80$
 
Free chronograph advise included!

Interesting post! I grabbed an old Hornady manual that I had close, and using the ballistics chart for their 60 gr. HP, I find the numbers your ballistics prgram generated are very close. And you are correct, Dennis. Your velocity would have to be MUCH higher for for the drop to only be 2.5" @ 300 yds. Even a couple hundred fps either way won't have that kind of effect at 300 yds.

One other poster had a good point: Make sure you never rest your barrel on the bags while your shooting. I learned many years ago that this does really weird things to trajectory. I suspect your 300 yds. isn't really 300 yds.

I don't own a rangefinder, but I borrowed one once, and found that they can EASILY be inaccurate. Any little minute movement of the rangefinder in your hand could easily have it pointed at something at a different distance. The one I borrowed was one of those expensive Lieca's. I borrowed it to use to set up my shooting range here at the house. The button you pushed to find the range took quite a lot of pressure to activate. I found it was impossible to get accurate, repeated readings without resting the rangefinder on something very solid. Don't believe me? Take a 4x scope, hold it in your hands and try to steady the crosshairs on something 300 or so yds. away. Then imagine trying to steady it while pushing a button!

Regarding chronographs, I have over the last 20 or so years owned 4 different brands of chronograph. I current own a Chrony Beta Master. The Chrony, though it's the easiest to set up, has hands-down been the worst and most unreliable chronograph I've ever owned. It is very sensitive to light conditions. This is SO frustrating when working up loads. Also, the user interface is very frustrating and confusing. I recently obtained a CED Mellinium II. Since I have my own range, I'll likely leave it set up and just cover it with a tarp, so ease of set up won't be an issue.

Several years ago, I was at a public range shooting my 220 Swift. This is an incredibly accurate rifle that from time to time groups my favorite hunting load into the 1/4"-3/8" range at 100 yds. I stapled one of those gridded targets at what I was told was the 300 yd. backstop. I was firing a handload that pushed a 55 gr. Sierra SBT in the 3800 fps range according to my chrono. I proceeded to fire a 3 shot group which measure exactly 1.1". (No, I don't think I could ever do that again!!)I was quite happy with my group so I kept the target. Some time later as I was admiring the target, I notice that the group was about 6.5" below my point of aim. A red flag popped up in my head as I'd studied the ballistics of the cartridge long enough to know that bullet drop shouldn't have been nearly that much. I ran the numbers through an old DOS based ballistics program I had and discovered that was the amount of drop for 350 yds. Some time later back at the range I began questioning other members as to the distance to the far backstop and found it was actually 350 yds. Subsequent firing of other rifles at that backstop and comparing their bullets drops to ballsitics table proved this to be true. My point here is that you should probably trust your program and question your rangefinder!
Regards,
35W
 
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