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Testimony of John White, The GunSmith, before the House Judiciary Committee’s Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security on the Operations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATFE) at the Richmond Area Gun Shows
February 15, 2006
4:00 PM
Room 2141
Rayburn House Office Building
Dear Committee Members,
At the Gunsmith, we are fortunate that our livelihood does not depend on gun sales. Our sales philosophy is not to sell at all costs but to provide a quality product for gun collectors, for self-protection and for competition shooters. Typically, the cost of the products we sell prevents our firearms from being attractive to individuals intending to make illegal or illicit purchases. We also spend time talking with our customers about their reasons for purchasing a firearm to make sure that the firearm we sell will suit the intended purchase, ensure they understand how to safely handle their firearm and to offer opportunity for further customization. We rely on repeat business and referrals because we normally cannot compete on price with larger gun dealers who can buy in quantity. What we can offer is quality, a guarantee that what we sell works and the extra customer service that a trained firearms instructor and experienced gunsmith can offer.
We know well the danger of firearms and that the lives we save by not selling for illegal purposes may be our families or our many friends in law enforcement agencies across the country. In 2004, our son was confronted by a burglar in his Richmond rental home. The burglar held in his hand what we think he imagined was a gun that he was stealing from our son’s room. What he actually had was a customized paintball gun. Our son chased the burglar until the guidance he received from his many law enforcement relatives kicked in and he stopped and called the Richmond Police Department. Ironically, the first two officers to respond had been co-workers of his parents when they worked at the Richmond Police Department. The officers had seen our son’s early years and were now responding to protect him as an adult. Preventing the illegal use of firearms and criminal activity, especially in the Richmond area, is always personal to The GunSmith.
The GunSmith is owned and operated by two former police officers who value the participation of the ATF in preventing firearms from getting into the hands of criminals. We value the ATF being available to us at the gun shows to quickly answer any firearms law questions that come up at the show. We appreciate the ability to have access to the ATF at the shows to point out suspicious situations as they arise so that these situations can be immediately and appropriately investigated. We have personally enjoyed the benefits of the ATF presence at the gun shows because prior to the strong ATF presence there was a large gang presence at the shows in Richmond. A fellow dealer, with whom we work closely, had two guns stolen as his attention was deliberately distracted with a mock word battle between gang members. Our lives were also threatened by an unhappy customer who threatened that he was “going to get his posse and come back for us.” These open displays of gang activity have largely ceased as word has gotten out of the strong ATF presence at the Richmond Gun Shows. We applaud the efforts and intent of the ATF program at the gun shows in the Richmond area and would agree that they could serve as models for other similar programs with a few exceptions.
Early activity at the gun shows was entirely appropriate and within the law, however, it appeared that as time went on, the ATF was joined by personnel from other law enforcement agencies who were outside their span of control. As more resources were added, both financial and personnel, the mission and activities seemed to continually expand to try to keep everyone busy. For example, in the early gun shows, the ATF would observe and interview when activity seemed suspicious. Then home checks were added as more local officers participated with the ATF. Then instead of just address verifications, our customers told us that the officers would interview neighbors and family members about how they felt about this person buying a gun.
Computerized criminal history check wait times went from 20 minutes to 2-4 hours to overnight or longer. There was a clear pattern that checks on Richmond area gun buyers received the longer wait times while purchasers from out of the area were cleared much more quickly. Yes, sometimes sales were lost because of the long waits and even more sales were lost when neighbors and family members were informed of the buyer’s intentions. Our income, fortunately, isn’t dependent on gun sales but most of our customers know that we are involved with law enforcement and wanted us to explain why their legal behavior was being reported to their neighbors and family members creating unwanted attention and difficulties.
Our customers questioned the fact that they were subjected to the additional scrutiny and address verification procedures only at gun shows when they could make the same purchase at a gun shop without the additional attention. This might seem reasonable if there was additional probable cause but it is hard to justify when we were making sales to Richmond Police Officers, Federal Prison Guards, US Marshals, military personnel home on leave, local judges, etc. who unfortunately seemed to share one additional characteristic, their ethnicity.
We don’t know if the ATF was ever aware of this circumstance but due to the backlogs created by these long waits, many dealers began calling in criminal history checks rather than delivering the paperwork to the on-site State Police personnel. Called-in checks had a much shorter wait time and quickly became the preferred method with many dealers.
We and most of the licensed dealers would much rather be able to work with the ATF than be forced to work around the more unreasonable methods. We would like to see the cooperative relationship with the ATF on criminal history checks and address verifications restored because there is no advantage for any licensed dealer to make an illicit sale. Licensed dealers are subject to additional scrutiny by the ATF both at the shows and at their place of business. An improper sale means a loss of income while a licensed dealer does the mandatory ATF firearms trace and spends time in court testifying because of the improper use of a sold firearm.
We would also like to see the inordinate attention on purchasers of firearms who happen to be female stopped. Times have changed and the world has changed. As more women have become head of households, entered law enforcement and the military and learned of their many advantages as competition shooters, more women are interested in firearms for the same reason as male purchasers. Unfortunately, many women are not very knowledgeable about firearms and The Gunsmith is somewhat rare at the show because we will take the time to talk to people and counsel them about their firearm choices whether or not they make a purchase from us. Not all women, however, know that we provide this service and rely on others to help them make the best choice and not get taken on price. This is no different than a woman taking a friend to buy a car or get car repairs on any other activity for which they are unsure of their expertise or believe they will be treated more fairly if they are there with a man. The truth is that not just women buy firearms for more than they are worth at a gun show. Gun shows are a business operation and caveat emptor applies. It seems, however, to be the prevailing opinion for law enforcement at the gun show that any woman who brings a male friend for advice or support must be making a straw purchase.
This probably was happening more often when the ATF first began attending the gun shows but the ATF must have missed how successful they have been in shutting down this practice by their presence. The “profile” has continued long after the problem, for the most part, has gone. For the Richmond Raceway Show that sparked this hearing, the problem was magnified by the fact that, on Sunday, there were probably almost as many law enforcement officers as customers at the show. If a woman approached a gun table, she was quickly surrounded by undercover officers closely observing her every move. A women was almost guaranteed to rate an interview if she actually purchased or attempted to purchase a gun at that show on Sunday.
Our observation was that there seemed to be a large group of very young, relatively inexperienced and very energetic law enforcement officers at this show on Sunday who wanted to make a good showing for their supervisors. Having supervised young, enthusiastic officers, we know that, although their intent is good, sometimes when they have too many resources and too much undesignated time, they tend to create things to do and often deviate from action plans. Our impression that this was the case on this fateful August Sunday is further supported by the fact that, according to the information that we received, records and notes from their temporary office at the show were left in a trashcan. Experienced officers would have been far too paranoid to leave records behind and far more polished and discreet in their observation skills. It seemed that on this one day, there was plenty of youthful energy and enthusiasm but adult supervision at the show was lacking.
That being said, we think it would be a mistake to remove the ATF presence from the gun shows especially over this one lapse. We do not want to return to the days where gangs felt free to mingle with legitimate purchasers and we credit the ATF with bringing the current business atmosphere to the shows in the Richmond area.
What we would specifically recommend is:
• A detailed action plan for the ATF at each show and a clearer division of labor for outside agencies so that the ATF is not held accountable for the actions of officers over whom they have no control. This action plan should include that an experienced supervising agent is always present at the show.
• There should be more scrutiny and more attention given to the parking lots at these gun shows where many gun transactions take place outside the scrutiny of the gun show and without any criminal history check or address verification requirement.
• There should be greater scrutiny of “private collection” dealers within the show who do not have a firearms dealer license. These dealers are also exempt from the criminal history or address verification requirement for their sales and these “private collection” dealers often have suspiciously large revolving stock for a true private collection. Any thinking criminal or straw purchaser is going to buy a gun in the parking lot or from these dealers and avoid the issue of criminal history checks and address verification all together.
• All the law enforcement agencies should respect the rights and privacy of the majority of customers who are at gun shows for honest purposes. Honest citizens should not be punished for the actions of the few. There should be greater attention paid to enforcing the law without abridging the rights of the many legitimate attendees at the gun show.
We know that what we are suggesting are more difficult investigations and cases to pursue but since the ATF has been so successful in eliminating most of the obvious violations from the shows and has access to additional resources and outside agencies willing to help, this would be a major step forward in shutting down any illicit gun sales and purchases occurring at the gun shows and we would greatly appreciate and support their efforts. We look forward to the continuing presence of the ATF at the gun shows and our continued mutual support.
John H. White, II
The GunSmith
John H. White, II
Co-Owner of The GunSmith
235 Vel-Mar Lane
Lyndhurst, VA 22952
Education:
Law Enforcement Certification, October 1980
Central Shenandoah Criminal Justice Training Center, Weyers Cave, VA
NRA Police Firearms Instructor School, August 1981
Secret Service Firearms Instructor Certification, 1987
Certified Armorer for Beretta, Colt, Glock, H&K, Ruger, Sig Sauer and Smith and Wesson Firearms
Experience:
Sergeant, (January 1992- Retired 2005), Albemarle County Police Department Patrol and Investigations Divisions, Charlottesville, VA
Police Officer, (July 1984 – January 1992), Albemarle County Police Department, Charlottesville, VA
Special Deputy U S Marshall, (1985 – 1987), Federal Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force
Deputy, (June 1983 – July 1984), Albemarle County Sheriff’s Office, Charlottesville, VA
Deputy, (July 1980 – May 1988), Fluvanna County Sheriff’s Office, Fluvanna, VA
Police Officer, (May 1978 – July 1980), Lake Monticello Police Department, Fluvanna, VA
Elizabeth B. White
Co-Owner of The GunSmith
235 Vel-Mar Lane
Lyndhurst, VA 22952
Education:
Bachelor of Arts (Magna cum Laude), December 1982
Virginia Commonwealth University, Richmond, VA
Major: Political Science
Law Enforcement Certification, January 1983
Richmond Bureau of Police Training Academy, Richmond, VA
Experience:
Commander of Administrative Services Division/Management Support Coordinator, (February 1999 – present), Albemarle County Police Department, Charlottesville, VA
Sergeant, (November 1991 – February 1999), Albemarle County Police Department, Charlottesville, VA
Police Officer, (July 1988 – November 1991), Albemarle County Police Department, Charlottesville, VA
Police Analyst/Officer, (January 1986 – May 1988), James City County Police Department, Williamsburg, VA
Police Officer, (July 1983 – August 1985), Richmond Bureau of Police, Richmond, VA
Testimony of John White, The GunSmith, before the House Judiciary Committee’s Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security on the Operations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATFE) at the Richmond Area Gun Shows
February 15, 2006
4:00 PM
Room 2141
Rayburn House Office Building
Dear Committee Members,
At the Gunsmith, we are fortunate that our livelihood does not depend on gun sales. Our sales philosophy is not to sell at all costs but to provide a quality product for gun collectors, for self-protection and for competition shooters. Typically, the cost of the products we sell prevents our firearms from being attractive to individuals intending to make illegal or illicit purchases. We also spend time talking with our customers about their reasons for purchasing a firearm to make sure that the firearm we sell will suit the intended purchase, ensure they understand how to safely handle their firearm and to offer opportunity for further customization. We rely on repeat business and referrals because we normally cannot compete on price with larger gun dealers who can buy in quantity. What we can offer is quality, a guarantee that what we sell works and the extra customer service that a trained firearms instructor and experienced gunsmith can offer.
We know well the danger of firearms and that the lives we save by not selling for illegal purposes may be our families or our many friends in law enforcement agencies across the country. In 2004, our son was confronted by a burglar in his Richmond rental home. The burglar held in his hand what we think he imagined was a gun that he was stealing from our son’s room. What he actually had was a customized paintball gun. Our son chased the burglar until the guidance he received from his many law enforcement relatives kicked in and he stopped and called the Richmond Police Department. Ironically, the first two officers to respond had been co-workers of his parents when they worked at the Richmond Police Department. The officers had seen our son’s early years and were now responding to protect him as an adult. Preventing the illegal use of firearms and criminal activity, especially in the Richmond area, is always personal to The GunSmith.
The GunSmith is owned and operated by two former police officers who value the participation of the ATF in preventing firearms from getting into the hands of criminals. We value the ATF being available to us at the gun shows to quickly answer any firearms law questions that come up at the show. We appreciate the ability to have access to the ATF at the shows to point out suspicious situations as they arise so that these situations can be immediately and appropriately investigated. We have personally enjoyed the benefits of the ATF presence at the gun shows because prior to the strong ATF presence there was a large gang presence at the shows in Richmond. A fellow dealer, with whom we work closely, had two guns stolen as his attention was deliberately distracted with a mock word battle between gang members. Our lives were also threatened by an unhappy customer who threatened that he was “going to get his posse and come back for us.” These open displays of gang activity have largely ceased as word has gotten out of the strong ATF presence at the Richmond Gun Shows. We applaud the efforts and intent of the ATF program at the gun shows in the Richmond area and would agree that they could serve as models for other similar programs with a few exceptions.
Early activity at the gun shows was entirely appropriate and within the law, however, it appeared that as time went on, the ATF was joined by personnel from other law enforcement agencies who were outside their span of control. As more resources were added, both financial and personnel, the mission and activities seemed to continually expand to try to keep everyone busy. For example, in the early gun shows, the ATF would observe and interview when activity seemed suspicious. Then home checks were added as more local officers participated with the ATF. Then instead of just address verifications, our customers told us that the officers would interview neighbors and family members about how they felt about this person buying a gun.
Computerized criminal history check wait times went from 20 minutes to 2-4 hours to overnight or longer. There was a clear pattern that checks on Richmond area gun buyers received the longer wait times while purchasers from out of the area were cleared much more quickly. Yes, sometimes sales were lost because of the long waits and even more sales were lost when neighbors and family members were informed of the buyer’s intentions. Our income, fortunately, isn’t dependent on gun sales but most of our customers know that we are involved with law enforcement and wanted us to explain why their legal behavior was being reported to their neighbors and family members creating unwanted attention and difficulties.
Our customers questioned the fact that they were subjected to the additional scrutiny and address verification procedures only at gun shows when they could make the same purchase at a gun shop without the additional attention. This might seem reasonable if there was additional probable cause but it is hard to justify when we were making sales to Richmond Police Officers, Federal Prison Guards, US Marshals, military personnel home on leave, local judges, etc. who unfortunately seemed to share one additional characteristic, their ethnicity.
We don’t know if the ATF was ever aware of this circumstance but due to the backlogs created by these long waits, many dealers began calling in criminal history checks rather than delivering the paperwork to the on-site State Police personnel. Called-in checks had a much shorter wait time and quickly became the preferred method with many dealers.
We and most of the licensed dealers would much rather be able to work with the ATF than be forced to work around the more unreasonable methods. We would like to see the cooperative relationship with the ATF on criminal history checks and address verifications restored because there is no advantage for any licensed dealer to make an illicit sale. Licensed dealers are subject to additional scrutiny by the ATF both at the shows and at their place of business. An improper sale means a loss of income while a licensed dealer does the mandatory ATF firearms trace and spends time in court testifying because of the improper use of a sold firearm.
We would also like to see the inordinate attention on purchasers of firearms who happen to be female stopped. Times have changed and the world has changed. As more women have become head of households, entered law enforcement and the military and learned of their many advantages as competition shooters, more women are interested in firearms for the same reason as male purchasers. Unfortunately, many women are not very knowledgeable about firearms and The Gunsmith is somewhat rare at the show because we will take the time to talk to people and counsel them about their firearm choices whether or not they make a purchase from us. Not all women, however, know that we provide this service and rely on others to help them make the best choice and not get taken on price. This is no different than a woman taking a friend to buy a car or get car repairs on any other activity for which they are unsure of their expertise or believe they will be treated more fairly if they are there with a man. The truth is that not just women buy firearms for more than they are worth at a gun show. Gun shows are a business operation and caveat emptor applies. It seems, however, to be the prevailing opinion for law enforcement at the gun show that any woman who brings a male friend for advice or support must be making a straw purchase.
This probably was happening more often when the ATF first began attending the gun shows but the ATF must have missed how successful they have been in shutting down this practice by their presence. The “profile” has continued long after the problem, for the most part, has gone. For the Richmond Raceway Show that sparked this hearing, the problem was magnified by the fact that, on Sunday, there were probably almost as many law enforcement officers as customers at the show. If a woman approached a gun table, she was quickly surrounded by undercover officers closely observing her every move. A women was almost guaranteed to rate an interview if she actually purchased or attempted to purchase a gun at that show on Sunday.
Our observation was that there seemed to be a large group of very young, relatively inexperienced and very energetic law enforcement officers at this show on Sunday who wanted to make a good showing for their supervisors. Having supervised young, enthusiastic officers, we know that, although their intent is good, sometimes when they have too many resources and too much undesignated time, they tend to create things to do and often deviate from action plans. Our impression that this was the case on this fateful August Sunday is further supported by the fact that, according to the information that we received, records and notes from their temporary office at the show were left in a trashcan. Experienced officers would have been far too paranoid to leave records behind and far more polished and discreet in their observation skills. It seemed that on this one day, there was plenty of youthful energy and enthusiasm but adult supervision at the show was lacking.
That being said, we think it would be a mistake to remove the ATF presence from the gun shows especially over this one lapse. We do not want to return to the days where gangs felt free to mingle with legitimate purchasers and we credit the ATF with bringing the current business atmosphere to the shows in the Richmond area.
What we would specifically recommend is:
• A detailed action plan for the ATF at each show and a clearer division of labor for outside agencies so that the ATF is not held accountable for the actions of officers over whom they have no control. This action plan should include that an experienced supervising agent is always present at the show.
• There should be more scrutiny and more attention given to the parking lots at these gun shows where many gun transactions take place outside the scrutiny of the gun show and without any criminal history check or address verification requirement.
• There should be greater scrutiny of “private collection” dealers within the show who do not have a firearms dealer license. These dealers are also exempt from the criminal history or address verification requirement for their sales and these “private collection” dealers often have suspiciously large revolving stock for a true private collection. Any thinking criminal or straw purchaser is going to buy a gun in the parking lot or from these dealers and avoid the issue of criminal history checks and address verification all together.
• All the law enforcement agencies should respect the rights and privacy of the majority of customers who are at gun shows for honest purposes. Honest citizens should not be punished for the actions of the few. There should be greater attention paid to enforcing the law without abridging the rights of the many legitimate attendees at the gun show.
We know that what we are suggesting are more difficult investigations and cases to pursue but since the ATF has been so successful in eliminating most of the obvious violations from the shows and has access to additional resources and outside agencies willing to help, this would be a major step forward in shutting down any illicit gun sales and purchases occurring at the gun shows and we would greatly appreciate and support their efforts. We look forward to the continuing presence of the ATF at the gun shows and our continued mutual support.
John H. White, II
The GunSmith
John H. White, II
Co-Owner of The GunSmith
235 Vel-Mar Lane
Lyndhurst, VA 22952
Education:
Law Enforcement Certification, October 1980
Central Shenandoah Criminal Justice Training Center, Weyers Cave, VA
NRA Police Firearms Instructor School, August 1981
Secret Service Firearms Instructor Certification, 1987
Certified Armorer for Beretta, Colt, Glock, H&K, Ruger, Sig Sauer and Smith and Wesson Firearms
Experience:
Sergeant, (January 1992- Retired 2005), Albemarle County Police Department Patrol and Investigations Divisions, Charlottesville, VA
Police Officer, (July 1984 – January 1992), Albemarle County Police Department, Charlottesville, VA
Special Deputy U S Marshall, (1985 – 1987), Federal Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force
Deputy, (June 1983 – July 1984), Albemarle County Sheriff’s Office, Charlottesville, VA
Deputy, (July 1980 – May 1988), Fluvanna County Sheriff’s Office, Fluvanna, VA
Police Officer, (May 1978 – July 1980), Lake Monticello Police Department, Fluvanna, VA
Elizabeth B. White
Co-Owner of The GunSmith
235 Vel-Mar Lane
Lyndhurst, VA 22952
Education:
Bachelor of Arts (Magna cum Laude), December 1982
Virginia Commonwealth University, Richmond, VA
Major: Political Science
Law Enforcement Certification, January 1983
Richmond Bureau of Police Training Academy, Richmond, VA
Experience:
Commander of Administrative Services Division/Management Support Coordinator, (February 1999 – present), Albemarle County Police Department, Charlottesville, VA
Sergeant, (November 1991 – February 1999), Albemarle County Police Department, Charlottesville, VA
Police Officer, (July 1988 – November 1991), Albemarle County Police Department, Charlottesville, VA
Police Analyst/Officer, (January 1986 – May 1988), James City County Police Department, Williamsburg, VA
Police Officer, (July 1983 – August 1985), Richmond Bureau of Police, Richmond, VA
Try Plan B.