Battle of the CA Legal .223's: Saiga vs Su-16
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Deer Hunter
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I didn't think the Saigas were availible in CA.
MD_Willington
Member
Yes they are allowed in CA as the RAA Saiga is not on "The List"... yet!
I was all about the SU-16 until I had seen that it has a polymer receiver. I haven't tried polymer guns yet, I'm sure the 16 is safe, but I still have yet to pick one up. Polymer's feel kinda cheap to me.
Saiga: AK pattern stamped receiver, low cost, variety of calibers .223, 7.62x39, .308, 12ga, 20ga, .410. Simple to field strip and maintain. Side mount rail for optics, so you can still use your iron sites and get a nifty psu style surplus scope. . I can't say much for the trigger though, and I've always hated changing mags in AK pattern. AK style rifles are like tanks. Reliable.
SU-16. I believe these will accept AR15 style magazines, the folding but can store a pair of extra mags, the hand guard on some models can be folded down and used as a bipod. Polymer receiver integral pic-rail, so (I believe) your optics would interfere with your iron sights. Forget whether it uses a short or long stroke gas piston. Costs more than a Saiga but less than a mini-14/ Folds into a compact package for backpacking or truck duty. Never fired one so I cannot vouch for the trigger.
I hear accuracy isn't the best on either of these, but please define accurate? what's your range? how tight a group are you after?
I'd say go Saiga, but if you do go with an SU16, please let us know what you think about the rifle.
Saiga: AK pattern stamped receiver, low cost, variety of calibers .223, 7.62x39, .308, 12ga, 20ga, .410. Simple to field strip and maintain. Side mount rail for optics, so you can still use your iron sites and get a nifty psu style surplus scope. . I can't say much for the trigger though, and I've always hated changing mags in AK pattern. AK style rifles are like tanks. Reliable.
SU-16. I believe these will accept AR15 style magazines, the folding but can store a pair of extra mags, the hand guard on some models can be folded down and used as a bipod. Polymer receiver integral pic-rail, so (I believe) your optics would interfere with your iron sights. Forget whether it uses a short or long stroke gas piston. Costs more than a Saiga but less than a mini-14/ Folds into a compact package for backpacking or truck duty. Never fired one so I cannot vouch for the trigger.
I hear accuracy isn't the best on either of these, but please define accurate? what's your range? how tight a group are you after?
I'd say go Saiga, but if you do go with an SU16, please let us know what you think about the rifle.
Quiet
Member
If you own pre-ban AR hi-cap mags, go with the SU-16CA. That way you can use the mags.
If you don't own any pre-ban AR hi-cap mags, go with the Saiga-223.
Or you could just build yourself a CA legal OLL AR15.
Head over to www.calguns.net for more info.
If you don't own any pre-ban AR hi-cap mags, go with the Saiga-223.
Or you could just build yourself a CA legal OLL AR15.
Head over to www.calguns.net for more info.
ClickClickD'oh
Member
The Saiga and the SU-16CA both have about the same accuracy. They both use the gas piston system of operation. My Saiga is a great rifle, and so is my SU-16CA. Both of them munch through just about anything I put in them, including Wolf.
Normally I would say the Saiga is the better option, but you won't be able to convert it in CA... and the original trigger sucks. Because of that I would go with the SU-16CA. It's a tough choice to make between these two rifles.
PS: Yes, the SU-16CA does in fact accept standard AR magazines.
Normally I would say the Saiga is the better option, but you won't be able to convert it in CA... and the original trigger sucks. Because of that I would go with the SU-16CA. It's a tough choice to make between these two rifles.
PS: Yes, the SU-16CA does in fact accept standard AR magazines.
MrTuffPaws
Member
Nor will they ever be. The DOJ lost it's ability to add to the list by a law passed. Only those already on the list, and feature set make guns illegal in CA anymore.
MrTuffPaws
Member
Yes you can convert a Saiga to a pistol grip conversion, but you must fix the magazine then. A few people on calguns.net sell bullet buttons for AKs, and the will work for a Saiga as well.
MrTuffPaws
Member
Accuracy is about the same. Around 2-3 MOA at 100 yards. I have no issues hitting 12" plates at 100 yards with open sights on my 7.26x39 version.
Triggers? The linkage on a Saiga is pretty hoaky, and it makes the trigger feel spongy up to break point. The break point is heavy, and not the smooth. As I said though, it is not bad enough to stop me from hitting 12" plates at 100 yards
Scopes: I don't use them, but if you do get a scope for a Saiga, make sure you get one that will work with the side rail. Avoid the dust cover mounts like the plague. They never hold a zero.
All in all, I think the SU-16 Ca is a pretty nifty gun that doesn't have the problems of the Saigas. If you want to go for a poly gun, then I would go with the SU-16. If you want a gun that will last forever, is accurate enough, and will always go boom, then go with a Saiga.
chris in va
Member
I like my Saiga for the most part, short and light. But you're right the trigger could use some help.
rangerruck
Member
the only reason I picke the keltec, is becuase it is not so 'evil ak looking black rifle, asault thingy' looking, plus it takes regular ar mags.
crazed_ss
Member
From the options given, I'd go with a Saiga. Seen too many reliability issues with SU-16's to consider one.
BillinNH
Member
Of the rifles I prefer the SU-16 but I voted for the muffin.
Bill
Bill
I spent my money on a Mini-14 Stainless/Synthetic Ranch Rifle and an AR-15 20" A4 with a Bullet Button mag release. I like both of them for what they do well.
I chose not to spend my money on a Saiga or SU, though word is the Saiga is reliable if heavy and the SU-16CA is a neat package (the CA is the only one that appeals to me, for some reason, and its the most expensive).
There are opinions like, "Hmmm.... That seems cool." and there are opinions that involve actual cash outlay. The above are where I chose to put my cash, with no regrets.
WRT the Mini, it's a great little package. Some people hate them, but carrying one through brush all day made me really like the things.
As far as that goes, the Mini makes an excellent tool, and the AR is an excellent toy. I don't mean that as a put-down of the AR; I mean that its accuracy and versatility make it fun to reconfigure, shoot paper with, etc.
The Mini doesn't really offer these things, but it's a low-profile, light, reliable, dirt-tolerant, very rust and scratch resistant truck and carry carbine. New Mini's are supposed to be more accurate, so paper punching may be more fun at 100 yards; with mine, reactive targets are more fun.
My next .223 semiauto will likely be another AR upper, something like a fluted 16" with a lightweight freefloat 4-rail handguard, Mid or Spectre length, with some fancy sights or others, built a few dollars at a time.
What it won't be is a Saiga or SU. YMMV.
I chose not to spend my money on a Saiga or SU, though word is the Saiga is reliable if heavy and the SU-16CA is a neat package (the CA is the only one that appeals to me, for some reason, and its the most expensive).
There are opinions like, "Hmmm.... That seems cool." and there are opinions that involve actual cash outlay. The above are where I chose to put my cash, with no regrets.
WRT the Mini, it's a great little package. Some people hate them, but carrying one through brush all day made me really like the things.
As far as that goes, the Mini makes an excellent tool, and the AR is an excellent toy. I don't mean that as a put-down of the AR; I mean that its accuracy and versatility make it fun to reconfigure, shoot paper with, etc.
The Mini doesn't really offer these things, but it's a low-profile, light, reliable, dirt-tolerant, very rust and scratch resistant truck and carry carbine. New Mini's are supposed to be more accurate, so paper punching may be more fun at 100 yards; with mine, reactive targets are more fun.
My next .223 semiauto will likely be another AR upper, something like a fluted 16" with a lightweight freefloat 4-rail handguard, Mid or Spectre length, with some fancy sights or others, built a few dollars at a time.
What it won't be is a Saiga or SU. YMMV.
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atek3
Member
Uh how about the Beretta RX4 Storm? it's certainly a looker
Quiet
Member
I believe they are having problems with importing it into the USA.
Because it should have been released already.
If I had to wait for an upcoming CA legal rifle, I would go with a CA firearms company (Blackstar Arms) instead of the Beretta RX4 Storm.
Blackstar Arms AR15
GigaBuist
Member
Man, that trigger looks to be way far out there on that Blackstar Arms rifle.
That said, if they can make it work, perhaps Remington could license the stock design for them and offer a slightly more traditional stock on their R-15 line?
That said, if they can make it work, perhaps Remington could license the stock design for them and offer a slightly more traditional stock on their R-15 line?
Full Clip
Member
I'd buy the Blackstar in a minute if it was available.
I have an SU-16 -- a fun gun, but you can practically get 2 Saigas for the price. That said, I had some 20-rnd AR mags, so I went with Kel-Tec.
Mine:
I have an SU-16 -- a fun gun, but you can practically get 2 Saigas for the price. That said, I had some 20-rnd AR mags, so I went with Kel-Tec.
Mine:
cslinger
Member
I'll take the AK over the plastic gun any day of the week and twice on Tuesday.
I thought Saiga's were on the list by name though.
Chris
I thought Saiga's were on the list by name though.
Chris
MrTuffPaws
Member
Dupe
MrTuffPaws
Member
The series weapon bans, such as AKs or ARs were determined illegal in court. An AW is either listed by make and model, or by features.
The listed Saiga is listed as "Kalashnikov USA / Hunter Saiga" Saigas under the make of EAA and RAA are legal to own, assuming that you do not alter them to illegal configurations.
Calguns.net has a really good FAQ about it.
telomerase
Member
One of the poll options should have been "defect to the Free World".
enichols
Member
It ain't a California related thread without at least one of these kinds of posts.
Thanks for the advice.
I voted Saiga.
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