Battling over guns at work

[PinnedAndRecessed]

(Christian Science Monitor) Jason Smith is in a tough spot. He works for a company he has been asked to boycott.

In an effort to keep weapons out of the workplace, his employer, ConocoPhillips, is challenging state law and has forbidden workers to leave guns in their cars in company parking lots. Now, the National Rifle Association (NRA) is encouraging gun owners to stop buying ConocoPhillips gasoline.

The boycott is the latest skirmish in an expanding battle over gun control. Now that many states allow citizens to carry concealed weapons, the NRA is pushing to eliminate remaining restrictions on where those guns can be taken. Gun-control groups - and some employers - are fighting back. The outcome could decide whether more states expand the rights of licensed owners to carry their guns where they want, despite recent evidence that workplace gun bans do lower risk.

This issue is simmering in states across the country, says Stephen Halbrook, a Virginia lawyer who handles many Second Amendment cases. "But it is in brightest relief in Oklahoma."

That's because Oklahoma is one of only two states with statutes that specifically prohibit employers from banning weapons on their own property. (Kentucky is the other state.) ConocoPhillips and several other employers are challenging the 2003 Oklahoma law in federal court.

"ConocoPhillips supports the Second Amendment and respects the rights of law abiding citizens to own guns," the Houston-based oil company says in a written statement. "Our primary concern is the safety of all our employees.

We are simply trying to provide a safe and secure working environment for our employees by keeping guns out of our facilities, including our company parking lots."

But gun-control opponents see the issue in constitutional terms.

"This case clearly goes to the very core of the freedom of Americans to own and travel with firearms in this country," says Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the NRA. If companies successfully block the Oklahoma law, "it could be a blueprint for thousands of corporations across this country to declare their parking lots anti-Second Amendment zones, which could in effect gut 'carry' laws in 38 states and restrict hunters on every hunting trip." Conceivably, gun owners would have nowhere to get a sandwich or fill up with gas, he adds.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/12/national/main775233.shtml

 

[Cesiumsponge]

We are simply trying to provide a safe and secure working environment for our employees by keeping guns out of our facilities, including our company parking lots."

Yeah, because guns owned legally by employees have caused exactly how many problems at ConocoPhillip locations in the past? I bet you could count them on one hand.

How many videos have I seen of clerks grabbing a firearm or improvised weapon that successfully chased away would-be-robbers?

Oh well, no more gas from the 76 gas station for me.

 

[1911 guy]

Rational?

It never ceases to amaze me when businesses think that prohibiting we good guys from carying a handgun into their building will also stop someone with the intention of breaking the law.

 

[MechAg94]

When they say it is for safety, I think that is a mistake. When I have asked managers in my company, the only candid answer I ever got was that they don't want irate employees to have a gun nearby. They might justify this on their own property rights etc, but when they justify it on employee safety, I think that opens it up for legal and/or legislative action.

If they would just provide or allow parking outside their fenceline, employees would at least have a choice.
My company's parking garage is a public garage that is part of a shopping mall. They still have this policy and claim they have the right to search vehicles. I think it sucks.

 

[Zundfolge]

The outcome could decide whether more states expand the rights of licensed owners to carry their guns where they want, despite recent evidence that workplace gun bans do lower risk.

Wow! They just come right out and lie like that knowing nobody (but stewpid gun nuts) will question it.

 

[Standing Wolf]

We are simply trying to provide a safe and secure working environment for our employees by keeping guns out of our facilities, including our company parking lots.

We are simply trying to provide a safe and secure working environment for our employees by keeping Jews and blacks out of our facilities, including our company parking lots.

 

[MechAg94]

Good point Standing Wolf. Also, you could make the same statement they made in reverse supporting gun owners.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Before Texas had concealed carry my company decided to have everyone sign a, "no illegal drugs, alcohol, firearms, etc on company property" including company vehicles, company housing and company parking, etc.

On the first day of work when told to sign, I read it and handed it back to my boss and said I'm not signing this.
My boss, who I had worked with for many years said, "I know, I know, we have all ready been through this, scratch out guns and sign it".

Many/most of us traveled hundreds of miles to work and including my boss carried guns. Then most of us left the guns in the company housing the week we were at work. Before I had the chance to have my say the company had already backed down on the no gun policy.

If us gun owners would speak up in situations like this we might get our way once in a while.


Some of us took some serious fire power to work.

 

[GunnySkox]

On the other hand, the OWNER of any given piece of property has the RIGHT to decide what goes on on THEIR premises. If you don't like it, don't buy things from them, but for the same reason I'm not allowed to tell you you can't have guns on _your_ property, you don't get to tell ConocoPhillips what they have to allow on _their_ property.

Although I disagree with their policy, and no longer wish purchase that company's products, and hope a boycott/letter-writing/employee protests convince them to change it, I think it's wrong to use legislation or court proceedings to force the owners of private property to change their rules.

~Slam_Fire

 

[motoman]

Slam Fire

So are you saying an owner of a buisness could say I don't want:

*Wheelchairs in my buisness or parking lot
*Blacks in the "whites only" section of his restaraunt
*No midgets on my property
*No health inspectors in the kitchen
*to pay my property tax
*Women in my mens only cigar club
*gay people in my grocery store
*Un-married mothers renting an apartment from me
*seeing eye dogs in my hotel

They are forced to accept plenty of things they may want to ban.

Why are guns singled out as something that can be discriminated against.
I have never scene the right to keep and bear wheelchairs in the Constitution.

 

[Russ]

Tough situation. Decent, well paying, jobs are scarce in much of the county despite the growth in the economy. I don't think the right to bear arms should not be infringed upon. However, given the option of leaving the gun at home and still being able to earn a living, I would choose making a living. I have been un-employed in the past and it is really no fun. Unemployment can can create great havoc or ruin your life style very quickly. I know from experience.

That being said, I would probably still carry and let them catch me unless you have to go through metal detectors to get to work. A little Kel Tec 3AT or .32 is highly concealable.

This is really a personal decision. Usually when you work for someone else, they pretty much own you while at the work place. If you don't like it, then quit and go to the free market and see what you can get. If you can get another comparable situation that has no such foolish rules then quit and go there. Mr Smith should let the clowns at Conoco/Phillips know why too.

Someone said previously that Kentucky was one of two states that states that property owners cannot tell you not to bring weapons onto their property. This is true to a limited extent in KY. If a business or employer (which is a business) posts a sign that says weapons are not allowed they can make you leave the premises while armed. If you violate this "rule" more than once then your CCDWL, (Concealed Carry Deadly Weapons License) in KY, can be revoked and you could be subject to legal action.

This applies to concealed carry weapons. If you leave them in the car I don't think anyone in KY can tell you to get them out of there since they are not on your person.

I hope Mr. Smith in the article can stay employed and carry if he wants to. Not a choice I would like to have to make.

 

[CARRY'IN]

It is the legal industry dream to have everything lawfully regulated and restricted to such an extreme degree that everyone lives like a prey animal and understands sooner or later they will get nailed for something- and like a prey animal accepts it. The justice system parasites thrive in such an environment. I am not a libertarian- I am just tired of police everywhere and living in constant fear of getting sued or a 500 dollar ticket for whatever. It is getting ridiculous.

 

[PX15]

Guns at work?

I believe it has always been illegal to carry firearms on a "posted" Government facility, but that never was enforced when I was working at the Jacksonville Air Route Traffic Control Center from 1969-2000. I retired in 2000, so don't know about the situation now. (since 9/11).

I know during the ATC strike of 1981 the striking controllers complained to the media that the non-strikers (scabs/ME) were bringing firearms onto the facility in their vehicles and since it was illegal what were the Federal Marshalls monitoring the strike going to do about it.

The Federal Marshalls all had us attend a meeting where it was made very clear the "It is ILLEGAL to bring firearms on the facility grounds in our vehicles".... Then he said "quit leaving them in plain sight guys". End of problem. Our vehicles were never searched, and nothing more came of it.

Things were simplier then.

 

[Crosshair]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, Standing Wolf, Do you know how much 7-Up up the nose hurts when you are home sick with a bad cold. Good post though.

 

[svtruth]

Ada

What if a person had been mugged, developed PTSD, had this disability medically certified, and carried a gun on the advice of his/her Doctor?

 

[Jeff Timm]

Well I hope the employees insist the employer assume responsibility for any attacks on employer property. By this action, the employer assumes all responsibility.

A little 100 billion dollar judgement should suffice.

Geoff
Who hates law scum shyster vermin.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

As an employee of one of the companies (I won't say which) that was listed above, I am VERY VERY CAREFUL about bringing any form of AMMO/GUNS onto the complex or onto a job site.

The company has a no BS attitude about the firearms. You are FIRED and that is it.

I used to post my targets at my office. Sort of a decoration like others do but I was told I should not do it any more because it made folks "nervous". I told them if they had a reason to be "nervous" maybe they should be "nervous". That did not help the situation, so I took the targets down.

Now, I have casually inquired around the office and I was surprised how many folks are ignoring the ban, or actually even hoping for the possibility to be the test case. Sorry not me. I don't need the grief because I know a bunch of the lawyers in the company and they are good.

My off the cuff guess is if they did a sweep of the complex (about 3500 employees) and did a detailed search, they would "fire" about a third of the employees. They know it, but cannot afford to lose the employees, so there are no searches. The rule is there "just in case" they need it is my opinion, but then again who knows. I have heard that out in the field offices they have been running drug dogs around, so maybe someday they will hit headquarters.

So, do I carry to work even though I am licensed? Nope, against company policy to have a firearm on site and I try to live by the rules. Do I agree with the rule? No, because I am far more worried about the commute to and from the complex then at the complex.

 

[Third_Rail]

Slam_Fire, things are a bit different between a private property and an publicly open store/market.

 

[Freeze N]

My wife's X-Husband was recently released from a federal pen for Distributing Meth. She helped put him there. He has made threats to her in the past. We both Carry, and the company I work for has a no guns policy. So I drive 20 miles to work. Unarmed. And return home unarmed. I don't like arriving home and not knowing if he is there, has been there, or what sitiuation I will find.
It is bad policy, and needs changed.

 

[WT]

I believe in private property rights and the Owner's right to exercise them to the extent allowed by law.

Sure there are anti-discrimination laws and various building codes but other than that, I don't want the rest of private property rights to disappear.

If I don't want people to carry firearms on my property, I should be allowed to do so. I have enough 'slob hunters' who ignore my No Trespassing signs during deer season.

 

[GunnySkox]

What's the difference? Say I own a piece of property. No matter how I use it (within the bounds of the "proper" law, like no manufacturing nuclear devices, or no manufactuing illegal drugs, etc.) it continues to be MY property, and I can (or ought to be able to) throw out or accept in anyone I choose for any reason I choose. If I use "my" property as a business, and I hire people, I have a right to demand certain behaviors of them while they're on my property (say, wear a uniform, don't carry a gun, get trained and do carry a gun) they're free to get a job someplace else, or, if I can't afford to lose workers because of my policy, I'm free to change it.

I don't particularly care for the government telling anyone what they can or can't do with their business on their property. I don't like property taxes (because the insinuation is that "This land is your land, but this land is MY land more than yours, so pay me rent, or I'll have MY land back, Peasant!"), I don't think government inspections ought to be mandatory (my reasoning is this: nobody would eat at your restaurant/stay in your hotel/etc. if you didn't have the big Health Department meatball on your front window, just like nobody in their right mind would buy appliances that aren't UL listed, and don't buy a car that doesn't have seat belts, etc.).

Just because something is "wrong" doesn't mean their should be a law against it or a Judge forcing someone to change it.

~Slam_Fire

 

[ZenMasterJG]

Now that many states allow citizens to carry concealed weapons

...

Gun-control groups - and some employers - are fighting back.

I sure do love the painfully left-wing news media.

:banghead:

 

[TallPine]

the only candid answer I ever got was that they don't want irate employees to have a gun nearby

Recalling the mal-treatment that I have in the past received from some employers, I can understand that attitude


Oh, and while we are discussing "private property" - what about the private property rights of the employees regarding the inside of their cars...?

We are not talking about CCW inside a building, just storing personal property in one's own vehicle. Maybe they should forbid them from having jack handles and lug wrenches in their cars too, because after all a disgruntled employee might get violent with those too......

 

[MICHAEL T]

My gun , my car. While I am at work is not hurting at thing. I can understand not carrying inside. But the car is mine not companys and its just resting in lot while I work.I hope these companys loose this one. I have worked for these kind of people and I left my pistol in car and took my chances.
Had a shooting in my work place about 1 1/2 years ago 2 dead 2 wounded Guy was x-employe from or Ga terminal. Had been let go over a year before .Drove up to our Cin.Ohio terminal walked in a started shooting.Was caught in a truck stop over in In. about 60 miles from terminal.

 

[M2 Carbine]

A couple months ago a friend was driving home from work at night. Another employee was ahead of him in a van.
Some gang bangers or illegals shot into the van 3 times, one shot inches from the driver's head.

When the police FINALLY showed up, (shootings that miss aren't a priority in Dallas ) my friend had his car gun pistol in his belt.


My friend's employer is a big car manufacturer with a no gun policy for their parking lot.

Bottom line is, the hell with that company's anti gun policy.

My friend's wife also works at the same company and carries to work.

Abiding by those company rules doesn't help you a bit if a car load of illegals decides to use your car as target practice.

If caught with a gun in the company parking lot, which very seldom happens, you can always get another job.
But most companies DO NOT want to be in the position of catching you and they "put out the word" about a search in plenty of time for you to take action.