Be Careful With Your Exploding Targets!

[JSH1]

A guy died when his exploding target material detonated.

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2015/03/exploding_target_materials_bla.html

 

[deadin]

It was just a matter of time before Darwin showed up......
(If a little bit is good, more is better..)

 

[gspn]

Not much of a story, and certainly not a cautionary tale on exploding targets since investigators have no idea what happened.

It's basically "a guy died, but we have no idea if it was homicide, suicide, or an accident."

 

[g.willikers]

Good thing the reporters don't think too long and deep about the potential for disaster from every gasoline station, the cars in their garages, and the gas lines into their houses.
Panic In The Streets!

 

[JSH1]

Not much of a story, and certainly not a cautionary tale on exploding targets since investigators have no idea what happened.

It's basically "a guy died, but we have no idea if it was homicide, suicide, or an accident."

No there aren't many answers in the story but there are a lot of questions. Why was this guy messing with large quantities of explosive target material on the side of the road? It didn't blow up in his car. He wasn't at a shooting area or even a forest road. He was on the edge of the woods, on a major highway, with enough explosives to take out some trees.

 

[Officers'Wife]

OK, putting my cynical little mind at work... The BATF stated "briefly" it wasn't an explosion that involved them... I seem to recall a city gas explosion in Indianapolis that BATF yanked away from the state police so fast the boys in blue had dislocated shoulders. Another was a grain dust explosion in South Dakota...

Could it be the "exploding targets" scenario is "reasonable deception" to protect an "ongoing investigation?" Any other explanation doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[g.willikers]

Bureauacracies all work hard to justify their existance.
Doubt the BATFE is any different?

 

[taliv]

well, last month an 8 year old boy was killed when a total moron filled a stove with tannerite (or one of the competing brands) and blew it up.

so yeah, the point remains, you should be careful with your exploding targets

 

[Fatdaddy]

One things for certain, if that was Tannerite it was one hell of a lot of it....

 

[Officers'Wife]

well, last month an 8 year old boy was killed when a total moron filled a stove with tannerite (or one of the competing brands) and blew it up.

so yeah, the point remains, you should be careful with your exploding targets

Using the two function brain cells that even most blatant fool has is always good advice. When I was working emergency room I had one patient that had gotten bored at work and filled a balloon from an acetylene torch then set the balloon on fire with a cigarette lighter. There was another Mensa candidate that tried to jump from the bed of one pickup truck to another while they were side by side on I-65. Part of the human condition is there is going to be someone, somewhere take the most useful and normally safe tools and figure a creative way to hurt themselves with it. From tannerite to Tampax, the moment it's made foolproof, nature will design a bigger and better fool. The best advice is don't be the fool of the moment.

 

[JRWhit]

I havent had a whole lot of experiance with exploding targets, but in my limited experiance I never recall seeing any burn marks on anything. In the photos from the linked story, there is very clear smoldering on the surrounding trees and foliage. Any one who has had more experiance please enlighten me.

 

[JSH1]

I havent had a whole lot of experiance with exploding targets, but in my limited experiance I never recall seeing any burn marks on anything. In the photos from the linked story, there is very clear smoldering on the surrounding trees and foliage. Any one who has had more experiance please enlighten me.

I don't see burn marks. I see a lot of dirt plastered onto the surrounding trees.

 

[hso]

The crater left was more than 10 feet wide and 2 feet deep.

Did they find the moron's buddy who was holding his beer?

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

If he had that gallon milk jug full of tannerite he was lucky to be dead.

 

[JRWhit]

I don't see burn marks. I see a lot of dirt plastered onto the surrounding trees.

Oops. Ok makes sense now. Viewed it from my phone the first time and it looked like burnt powder residue.

 

[230RN]

Probably off-topic for THR, but I think there should be a place herein to put this thread, since is a matter of safety concern for those of us in the firearms hobby who do use legal explosive mixtures for entertainment or theatrical purposes --and are probably the only ones who use it.

I quit playing around with high-powered chemistry many decades ago after a close call, and while I still had ten fingers.

There are Tannerite-like mixtures out there (usually containing sulfur) which do not need a high-powered bullet to detonate. Mixtures like this (sometimes called flash powder) are used in the salute shells of fireworks displays. They also used to be employed in photography for large-scale architectural and underground light sources.

Since the compound used is still unknown, I could, with your permission, speculate that the BATFE is "blaming" otherwise legal (federally) binary explosives for it. The first headlines are the ones that count.

I was not surprised, with the size of the blast, that there was "body fragmentation."

Three people were killed when they accidentally set off a large bomb near the Chautauqua building in Boulder a long time ago, and since I lived about 1700 feet from the blast, I had a chance to walk around the area right after it was cleared by the police. There were many grease spots on the sidewalks and pavement and the birds were still picking stuff out of the trees. I saw a magpie fly off with something about 6" long hanging from its beak. I also noted some small pieces of the car they were in scattered around --glass, chunks of plastic, etc. in the bushes and landscaping.

Terry

REF:

http://www.dailycamera.com/lifestyl...r-bombings-neva-romero-remembered-documentary

The explosion at Chautauqua at 9:49 p.m. May 27, 1974, was heard all over town. Coming from inside a blue 1966 Oldsmobile, the blast killed Reyes Martinez, age 26; Una Jaakola, 24, and Romero, 21. A brown leather handbag with Romero's student identification was recovered at the scene.

 

[Liquidring]

A lot of the 22lr target stuff is VERY sensitive to static electricity and makes very large boom for the small package. I've set off one in the yard, taped to a gallon milk jug full of water, it cleared the grass for about 6ft around, surprised the crap out of me as we shoot the 1lb Tannerite all the time and don't get the same results, but the Tannerite will start a fire, ask me I know. Still have the rest of the 22lr packets, just too skiddish to shoot due to static electricity every time I think about doing it. I like all my digits still being attached.

 

[ku4hx]

Better stay away from hot dogs and Vienna sausages too. People have died while using them as well. As soon as they make an id10t-proof device, along come better id10ts.

 

[FROGO207]

Well lets see IF that milk jug was part of the investigation why did they not take it away as evidence before leaving the scene?? Also there are many times I have used binary explosives and that milk jug would be in a thousand plus pieces if it were holding a load of say Tannerite. Just a good excuse to blame binary explosives and vilify the firearms owner again IMHO. I will wait until they say what REALLY happened after the investigation to add more input.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Probably off-topic for THR, but I think there should be a place herein to put this thread, since is a matter of safety concern for those of us in the firearms hobby who do use legal explosive mixtures for entertainment or theatrical purposes --and are probably the only ones who use it.

I quit playing around with high-powered chemistry many decades ago after a close call, and while I still had ten fingers.

There are Tannerite-like mixtures out there (usually containing sulfur) which do not need a high-powered bullet to detonate. Mixtures like this (sometimes called flash powder) are used in the salute shells of fireworks displays. They also used to be employed in photography for large-scale architectural and underground light sources.

Since the compound used is still unknown, I could, with your permission, speculate that the BATFE is "blaming" otherwise legal (federally) binary explosives for it. The first headlines are the ones that count.

I was not surprised, with the size of the blast, that there was "body fragmentation."


Terry

REF:

My uncle was licensed and bonded to work and "manufacture" explosives, including pyrotechnic mixtures. While I can remember one instance when he was walking around with dynamite cartridges in one back pocket, prima-cord in the other, the blasting caps in his shirt pocket and safety fuse around his neck he was fanatical about safety and safety practices. I'm told that on one job he went so far as to jerk a walkie talkie from an police officer's hand and destroying it with a tamping rod. (He was using electric blasting caps and a radio transmission can set them off.)

Two compounds he absolutely refused to have anything to do with was nitroglycerin and ammonia nitrogen tri-iodide. His reasoning was he wanted nothing to do with stuff that went off without him telling it to. I suspect he would feel the same way about Tannerite and similar compounds/mixtures.

On the other hand, he had an "exploding" target consisting of a 55 gallon oil drum with an attached plate that would set off a 12 gauge shotshell with just wadding when the plate was hit. It also featured a "nest" that he would put common wheat flour in loose. A hit made a "bang" and a large cloud of dust.

Most of the people that knew him were amazed that he managed to die of natural causes.

Added thought: Many years ago, someone crashed a truck into the courthouse of a nearby county. (I think Tippecanoe but I don't remember for certain.) BATF claimed the "bomb" was constructed by an "expert." It's one of the few times I've heard my uncle use profanity and directed at the so- called investigator. He then proceeded to tell me in agonizing detail why it was planned and constructed by a brain dead amateur. I've taken their statements with a grain of salt roughly the size of Mount Rushmore ever since.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

I suspect he would feel the same way about Tannerite and similar compounds/mixtures.

If he truly was an expert in explosives, then he should have no problem with Tannerite.

It's ammonium nitrate + ammonium perchlorate that you combine with a mixture of aluminum / titanium / zirconium hydroxide powder. Both substances are inert until mixed together. Even then, it takes a high energy impact to setoff the mixture. Once mixed, it's not flammable, and cannot be setoff with a fuse or electrically detonated. You can drop it or hit it with a hammer and it will not explode.

So, your uncle's problem with this would be...?

 

[Officers'Wife]

If he truly was an expert in explosives, then he should have no problem with Tannerite.

It's ammonium nitrate + ammonium perchlorate that you combine with a mixture of aluminum / titanium / zirconium hydroxide powder. Both substances are inert until mixed together. Even then, it takes a high energy impact to setoff the mixture. Once mixed, it's not flammable, and cannot be setoff with a fuse or electrically detonated. You can drop it or hit it with a hammer and it will not explode.

So, your uncle's problem with this would be...?

I suspect he would put it in the same class as NitroStarch by the very fact it can be detonated by small arms fire. The aluminum/perchlorate mix would also give him pause. But since I'm trying to fill his shoes (which I am sorely unqualified to do) exactly how much shock is necessary for detonation? Is that amount consistent through the entire possibility of mix ratios? What factor negates the tendency of ammonium perchlorate to decompose releasing heat of fusion under static electricity? Is detonation consistent in low density packing?

FYI- nitrogen tri-iodide is also supposely inert as long as it's wet. Yet in a water solution carefully adding water with more than a 100 degree (F) difference so there is a thermal layer effect will cause it to detonate.

It all boils down to risk tolerance. Since I do not know enough about the stuff to make an informed judgment on the risk I would have to let it pass. My uncle, who had a high sense of craft, would likely (in my opinion) would also find it unsuitable simply because he hated ammonium perchlorate more than "watered whiskey and gritty motor oil."

 

[krupparms]

Today I saw, on the NBC news that Tannerite had been banned in Maryland or was about to be. The story included was a story about someone blowing up a refrigerator with tannerite & cutting off a woman's hand with shrapnel. It seems to be the new target for the government. As was predicted by several here on THR, some people would use it to do stupid things & injure or kill someone. While I believe it is safe to use as directed, I believe that to many will not do so. That is unfortunate, as if used safely it can be a lot of fun. As this is made from commonly available components, I don't believe it will disappear anytime soon.I do think people should be more careful about things that explode.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I suspect he would put it in the same class as NitroStarch by the very fact it can be detonated by small arms fire. The aluminum/perchlorate mix would also give him pause. But since I'm trying to fill his shoes (which I am sorely unqualified to do) exactly how much shock is necessary for detonation? Is that amount consistent through the entire possibility of mix ratios? What factor negates the tendency of ammonium perchlorate to decompose releasing heat of fusion under static electricity? Is detonation consistent in low density packing?

FYI- nitrogen tri-iodide is also supposely inert as long as it's wet. Yet in a water solution carefully adding water with more than a 100 degree (F) difference so there is a thermal layer effect will cause it to detonate.

It all boils down to risk tolerance. Since I do not know enough about the stuff to make an informed judgment on the risk I would have to let it pass. My uncle, who had a high sense of craft, would likely (in my opinion) would also find it unsuitable simply because he hated ammonium perchlorate more than "watered whiskey and gritty motor oil."

It needs a supersonic shock wave to set it off. Generally an impact above 2,000 fps (2,200 for reliability). High velocity small arms fire is playing the role of a blasting cap here. Pretty sure your uncle would be super comfortable with it. It's far far on the other end of the sensitivity spectrum form nitroglycerin and nitrogen triiodide.

Official "Tannerite" has some ammonium perchlorate (it is mostly ammonium nitrate) and many of us use straight nitrate.

Mike

 

[bikerdoc]

The today show thing on NBC said that 32 lbs of tannerite was used to blow up the fridge.
They showed a cell video of the explosion and the flying shrapnel that sliced off the ladies hand.
They were way too close, in an open field with no back stop and few brains.