Bear shrugs off spray, takes hikers dog

[d2wing]

I am not clear on what we are discussing here. When I am in bear country I rarely think about it because while bears are common, and I have spent a great deal of time in the woods, I rarely see them and no one I know has ever been attacked by one They have done property damage to mine and others property. If I am outdoors at night and my dog gets alert or barks at something I like to arm myself. 9 MM or .357 pistol usually. Bear spray may or may not work in the case of an unusually aggressive bear in any case I don't have confidence in it. I do have confidence in my ability with a firearm. But again the odds are so small I rarely think about it. My sister carries a noisemaker. I know a person that carries pepper spray. No judgement from me.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Now, let's address that 100% or near 100% stop rate for firearms (not just handguns). This is a list a buddy helped put together with me over several days.

Bear was shot and killed but managed to kill the shooter before dying.
https://www.newsweek.com/bear-man-kill-each-other-clash-turkey-1721337

Bear was shot and managed to kill hunter who shot it...
https://www.newsweek.com/dying-bear-killed-russian-hunter-shot-crushing-skull-1717972

Uptain incident. Neither client nor Uptain had gun on their person. Bear attack happened. Client gets to horses to get Uptain's Glock pistol, but can't make it fire. So he tossed the gun to Uptain who was fighting a bear. Apparently, the mag was unseated and Uptain could not get gun to fire. Client ran to safety. Uptain discharged bear spray and traveled some 50 feet before collapsing. Apparently, the bear spray worked as the bear was chased off, but Uptain had already suffered fatal injuries. This is a story that was claimed to be a bear spray failure, but it isn't.
https://www.guns.com/news/2018/11/27/fatal-wyoming-bear-attack-no-round-in-the-chamber-on-handgun
https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.tow...-51b4-a9b4-dd9a247c83ec/5c51dbd49158b.pdf.pdf

This next event was argued as a bear spray failure, but not a gun failure, despite the fact that it is also a gun failure. Orr was hiking and was attacked twice by a bear. It was a gun failure for the same reasons bear spray is said to fail, hunter was not able to deploy it effectively and didn't bother. This experienced trailsman made a lot of mistakes. Why carry a scoped hunting pistol in bear country when you aren't hunting??? He was hiking and "scouting" for elk.
https://globalnews.ca/news/2978646/...eo-after-surviving-2-attacks-by-grizzly-bear/
He has all sorts of excuses for not being able to use his gun...
http://www.thetoddorr.com/2016/10/10/common-question-why-didnt-you-shoot-the-bear/
Interesting that he claims the gun would be hard to aim with a scope, but he had custom mounts so that he could use his iron sights. Hmmm.
"The scope was in a custom mount made by Todd, that allows use of the open sights under the scope."
https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/double-bear-attack-survivor-interviewed-at-shot-show/#axzz81mh224wr

Woman shot by her husband as she was being mauled. Probably won't hear about anyone being killed by bear spray.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/yukon-woman-mauled-bear-died-gunshot-wound-1.3378411

Bear hunters shot bear and then tracked wounded bear. Bear attacked one of the hunters. The other hunter shot the bear, killing the first hunter. Again, bear spray doesn't usually kill. You could say it stopped the attack, but that would be a bad argument given that the victim was killed by his buddy.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...n-during-grizzly-attack-idUSTRE78N0H220110924
We discussed it here at some length...
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...led-by-friends-bullet-not-bear-attack.616679/

Man was killed by a bear while field dressing a moose he shot. Since he shot the moose, he had a firearm but either couldn't or didn't access it.
https://www.wctrib.com/news/tragedy-strikes-family-twice

Had a rifle. Some sources say he managed to fire it.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calg...naskis-hunter-killed-in-bear-attack-1.2760221

Had a firearm. Discharged it. Died.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/missing-calgary-hunter-mauled-by-bear-1.658839

Shot the bear but still died. Not clear if the shot was fired in self-defense.
https://akfatal.net/Rasmussen 11-01-99.htm

Hunted bear shot, then killed hunter when hunter approached bear he thought he had killed. Bear killed by other hunters after killed first hunter.
https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/wil...hot-near-anchorages-ship-creek-official-says/

The charging bear was shot twice but the victim was still mauled. He was using a .375 H&H. Maybe not enough gun? A third shot from another person on scene ended the attack, killing the bear.
https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/article/alaska-bear-attack-shot-too-late/2010/11/05/

Guy was hunting so he presumably had a firearm.
https://apnews.com/article/210c16a73d3fae5eb11e6f3e0f953d5e

Monty Adams Hunting sheep so presumably he had a firearm.
http://www.southeasternoutdoors.com/wildlife/mammals/fatal-brown-bear-attacks.html#:~:text=Alberta - Monty Adams, 32,,but died during his evacuation.

The same would be here. These guys were moose hunting. Killed one. I assume they had guns. One managed to be killed by a bear and the other managed to shoot a bear and it ran off.

This guy did really well. He shot the attacking bear, but also shot himself. However, maybe this should not be here because he was successful in driving off the bear, LOL.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...self-grizzly-bear-attack-wyoming/10588377002/

Another gun failure and success story. 77 year old father hunting with guide son. Father is attacked and his face savagely mauled. Son killed the bear. Ostensibly, they both had guns, but the elder failed to use his. He was in shooting position when attacked.
https://www.recoilweb.com/surviving-bear-attacks-life-or-death-decisions-178092.html
https://www.themeateater.com/listen...ages-that-shocked-the-internet-with-bret-bohn
Horrific Images here...
https://medihelp.life/77-year-old-attacked-by-a-bear/

This guy had his rifle ready, seeing the bear stalk him as he bathed previously, but was outflanked by the bear and managed to not shoot it.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ive-I-forget-powerful-animal-charging-me.html

Guide and hunter fired twice, but bear still mauled him. He was one of multiple hunters chasing the bear with dogs when the bear came after him AFTER he had downed it with the first shot...
https://www.pressherald.com/2010/09/15/bear-attack-all-kind-of-a-blur_2010-09-15/
https://www.bangordailynews.com/201...survivor-lsquoit-was-all-kind-of-a-blurrsquo/

Plenty of bears failed to be stopped by firearms, either because people hit and the bear is unphased, missed, shot themselves, shot another hunter in the process of 'saving' the hunter, shot the bear and both bear and hunter died, accessed gun but could not fire it, had gun but didn't bother to try to use it, dead bear was not dead, etc.

Firearms are absolutely great for defense and I am not claiming otherwise. However, contrary to claims of being nearly 100% effective, that is WAY TOO GENEROUS.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

I’ve always thought one of those Carl Gustav 20mm recoilles rifles loaded with a depleted uranium slug would be a great bear gun.

 

[Aletheia]

There is way too much irrational fear of bears, and way too much irrational faith in guns as a cure for that fear. After 70 years of camping, canoeing, hiking, hunting, and many bear encounters of various kinds, a couple as close as 10 feet, I, and everyone I know, just don't think big bad bears are behind every bush waiting to kill us. I also have serious doubts about the ability of most gun advocates to use one effectively in the chaos should a very unlikely bear attack actually occur. A good shot from a good gun would undoubtedly be effective protection against an attacking bear, however, carrying a gun because you are in bear country is more superstition than real safety from real risks in the outdoors.

 

[AK Hunter]

If the bear already had the dog in it's mouth & the guy didn't want to spray the dog too he may have not been spraying the bear right. Bear spray doesn't do much good sprayed on the bears back, you got to hit it in their face.

 

[Trampstamp]

Bears don't generally want to mess with people. Just make sure you don't surprise them and that's probably the most effective way to deal with them. I'd guesstimate that around 80% of bear encounters are unknown to the human.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Just make sure you don't surprise them...

Definitely not always possible/realistic to do.

 

[Trampstamp]

Definitely not always possible/realistic to do.

Neither is "just carry bear spray all the time" nor "choose eem"

 

[d2wing]

Definitely not always possible/realistic to do.

I gather your point is to go unarmed because some folks failed in a panic situation. You think bear spray is better. I doubt that very much. People failure is not weapons failure.
I also think this discussion is about events that are very rare and even more rare reactions. I wouldn't make rules based on extremely rare events. I wonder if stupidity is a big factor.

 

[H&Hhunter]

There is way too much irrational fear of bears, and way too much irrational faith in guns as a cure for that fear. After 70 years of camping, canoeing, hiking, hunting, and many bear encounters of various kinds, a couple as close as 10 feet, I, and everyone I know, just don't think big bad bears are behind every bush waiting to kill us. I also have serious doubts about the ability of most gun advocates to use one effectively in the chaos should a very unlikely bear attack actually occur. A good shot from a good gun would undoubtedly be effective protection against an attacking bear, however, carrying a gun because you are in bear country is more superstition than real safety from real risks in the outdoors.

I agree! Most of the folks on the net giving out bear defense advice have never been close to a black bear much less face to face with an aggressive one. And fewer yet have been involved with a grizz or a brownie or a polar bear. Talking about using a hand gun for no kidding bear defense and actually getting it done are two entirely different things.
There are places that I feel naked without some form of bear protection. Mainly in grizzly country, as mentioned before and I 100 percent stick to my previous post above. Given the choice I’ll carry both a lethal and a non lethal tool. If I have the opportunity to stop the attack before it happens with bear spray I’m more than happy to do so. If it’s a life or death situation and a hand gun or a rifle is the right tool that’d be my go to. I used to live in North Western Ak and I always carried a firearm. There were a couple of times that if I’d have had spray I’d have used it. But being that bear spray wasn’t a thing back then I wound up talking the bear down and using body language because we weren’t to a lethal solution yet.

The benefit of bear spray is that it repels and educates overly curious bears, camp intruders etc without having the legal/ethical issues of having to kill a bear out of season. Not all bear encounters are life and death. Having only a firearm limits your options.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Neither is "just carry bear spray all the time" nor "choose eem"

I am sure you have a point, but I don't know what it is. I am not familiar with "choose eem" as being an English phrase.

I will say this, as I hunter, I have surprised a lot of animals doing what I do. Sometimes they were my prey species, sometimes not. It is very difficult to be doing your job and trying to not surprise one species of animal (e.g., bears) while not wanting your intended target to know you are there.

However, to address your issue of surprises, the most common type of negative bear-bear interaction is the surprise encounter. Usually if the bear does attack at that time, it is a brief and violent attack, some of which are almost like hit and runs, some lasting a couple of minutes. Said attacks usually end with the person going to the ER and the bear vacating the area, sometimes running, sometimes walking. Sometimes said surprise encounters happen as you might expect, people not paying attention to what is going on around them. Sometimes, it is the bear that isn't paying attention to what is going on. Some surprise encounters happen in the woods, campgrounds, along well used trails, have happened during cross country bike races, and even happen in town. Sometimes they happen in quiet environments and sometimes in noisy environments.

Sometimes you may surprise the bear, and sometimes the bear may surprise you, like on your own back patio where you like to relax.

I gather your point is to go unarmed because some folks failed in a panic situation. You think bear spray is better. I doubt that very much. People failure is not weapons failure.
I also think this discussion is about events that are very rare and even more rare reactions. I wouldn't make rules based on extremely rare events. I wonder if stupidity is a big factor.

All I pointed out was that the claim of "Just make sure you don't surprise bears" cannot be done all the time. If you gathered anything different from this thread, you gathered poorly. Not once have I intimated that folks should go unarmed.

You however, apparently are much more of an advocate of going unarmed than I am, as that is your usual practice.

Black bears are common where I have my summer cabin. I usually see at least one every year. I am usually unarmed and often have my dog along and loose.

However, one of the downsides of using either product can result non-targets getting sprayed or shot. That is a reality and has happened with both. You get sprayed with bear spray, and you might have a bad day. You get shot by your buddy trying to save you, and your day may be over forever, as has happened.

--------------------------

Bear spray is but one tool a person in bear country should have. It has its place. A firearm a person is proficient with is another tool a person should have in bear country. It also has its place. Application will depend on circumstances.

 

[Anchorite]

I scuba dive. You guys now have me more scared of bears than sharks or drowning.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I scuba dive. You guys now have me more scared of bears than sharks or drowning.

Try bear spray. It should work for sharks.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

While we’re on the subject, what 10mm load would be best for bears?

 

[Anchorite]

While we’re on the subject, what 10mm load would be best for bears?

41 Magnum.

 

[WisBorn]

While we’re on the subject, what 10mm load would be best for bears?

Hardcast, Xtreme Penetrator, or even FMJ'S.

 

[.308 Norma]

Try bear spray. It should work for sharks.

Bear spray "should work" for sharks every bit as well as shark repellent "should work" for bears.
You know what shark repellent is, don't you? It's a mixture of hamburger and female shark scent. When a male shark swims into it, it confuses him.
It generally doesn't work as well for female sharks because female sharks are usually not as easy to confuse in the first place.

 

[BushMaster-15]

This was in Canada so could the hiker have legally carried a gun anyway?

Yes depending upon Where and in which Province .

 

[BushMaster-15]

Like I told the Ranger once in Yellowstone , You carry the bear spray I'll carry the S&W 29 . One round in the ground and IF it doesn't deter the threat there will be #5 into the marauder ,for evidence in court !. I also added see I'm NOT A FOOL ,I'll take MY chances in Court rather than the morgue of good intentions . He simply walked away .