Been wanting an AR for a long time

[gf1723]

All throughout college I had wanted to own an AR style rifle and now that I have finally graduated and have a job, I'm going to set a bit of money aside each paycheck to pay for an AR. I'm not a complete n00b to guns, I own a .22 rifle and pistol, couple of revolvers (.38 and .357), Remington 870, and a Sig Sauger P230 pistol. I have done a lot of research over the past couple of days about different ARs and realizing that I'll need a chrome-lined barrel and M4 feed ramps.

I know everyone has their different brands, but usually there's a brand that always sticks out for people as the best reliability for a reasonable price. Just trying to narrow that down. I'm sure I'll probably just buy from a gun store, don't know much about ordering them online and didn't know if Illinois even allowed the shipping of firearms given that it's one of the crappiest states in gun control. If I go to a gun store, what are the things that I should ask for on an AR? Is it the barrel and M4 feed ramps? I just want something reliable that will last me a long time. I also heard that there was a difference between .223 and 5.56 NATO? I always thought they were the same round. I think I'll get it chambered in the 5.56 NATO if there is a difference. Hopefully I'm not going to spark any big debates or anything, this is not my intent. I would just like to know what to steer clear of when going AR shopping. Thinking about spending up to around $1100 for one.

EDIT: Forgot to note what my intentions are of the firearm. This will be for mostly range shooting, but also want a rifle that will be able to perform well in case of foreign invaders or a zombie apocalypse.

 

[MIL-DOT]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=46621

 

[DBR]

Any reputable FFL dealer should be able (and willing) to order a rifle for you for a reasonable transfer fee ($25-$50).

Try here for a good quality "best buy":
http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php

and here for top of the line at a reasonable price:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bravo-Company-Rifle-Carbine-M4-AR15-M16-s/140.htm

and here for more than you ever wanted to know about AR15s:
http://www.m4carbine.net/index.php

I would be hesitant to buy an AR15 from a gun store unless you really know what you are looking at and what are fair prices.

 

[Sky]

Don"t do it!!!! I started out with one and now have 5!!!!!! I am ashamed of myself!!! They all have there special purpose in my mind but I fear I have lost any remaining brain cells to Black Rifle fever!!! Get a dog....When you come home it will be waiting at your door wagging it's tail and generally glad to see you.

5.56 NATO can shoot 223 but not the other way around without problems due to chamber.

Chrome and new Nitride barrels are both good.

Get plenty of rest for no matter which brand you get you will use many brain cells figuring out what sights, grips, optics, add ons ad nauseum. I shall burn a candle for you.

Correction!!!!! Sixth will be here in two weeks...I wanna throw up!

 

[gf1723]

Don"t do it!!!! I started out with one and now have 5!!!!!! I am ashamed of myself!!! They all have there special purpose in my mind but I fear I have lost any remaining brain cells to Black Rifle fever!!! Get a dog....When you come home it will be waiting at your door wagging it's tail and generally glad to see you.

5.56 NATO can shoot 223 but not the other way around without problems due to chamber.

Chrome and new Nitride barrels are both good.

Get plenty of rest for no matter which brand you get you will use many brain cells figuring out what sights, grips, optics, add ons ad nauseum. I shall burn a candle for you.

Correction!!!!! Sixth will be here in two weeks...I wanna throw up!

Well, I really don't have enough money to be spending on five different ARs! Thanks for the heads up though.

 

[gf1723]

Any reputable FFL dealer should be able (and willing) to order a rifle for you for a reasonable transfer fee ($25-$50).

Try here for a good quality "best buy":
http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php

and here for top of the line at a reasonable price:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bravo-Company-Rifle-Carbine-M4-AR15-M16-s/140.htm

and here for more than you ever wanted to know about AR15s:
http://www.m4carbine.net/index.php

I would be hesitant to buy an AR15 from a gun store unless you really know what you are looking at and what are fair prices.

Those BCM rifles look nice! Would you guys suggest the MID or RECCE? I'm assuming the number after them is the barrel length? What do most people go with? The 16 inch?

I also really like the looks of the tactical handguard system rather than the regular one.

 

[W.E.G.]

NOBODY is chambering AR's in .223 anymore.

Any recently-built AR you will encounter will be 5.56.

 

[Skylerbone]

LMT if you want those features. You'll have a great rifle that's made in IL (Milan to be exact) and stacks up with the best of them. I chose Rock River (Colona, IL) and am perfectly satisfied but those who worship "The Chart" dismiss them since they can't (again, only in theory) shoot 5,000 rounds in a weekend without melting down and getting me killed. Well, good thing I didn't buy it for that.

Black rifles are fun but mine isn't my favorite. I grew up on bolt actions and to me nothing else comes close.

 

[Zerodefect]

Can't go wrong with the real thing. A Colt 6920 is a great rifle to start out with, add rails, Aimpoint, light later on......

Colt 6920 with: Aimpoint, Larue Lt129, ambi safety, BAD lever, Magpul ACS stock, Moe grip.



Sometimes I get carried away:
BCM Mk12 Mod3x on that Colt 6920 lower:

 

[dfjaws]

I like BCM myself. Great rifle for the price.

 

[benzy2]

You have to start off by determining what you are willing to pay for, what you want, and what means little to nothing. Some people will state the best buy is the cheapest AR you can get. Others swear only "chart approved" rifles are worth spending money on. First, I would look at your shooting amounts. Many of the features debated about only matter if you plan to shoot MANY rounds through the rifle, and even more so MANY rounds through the rifle without time to clean. Since you sound a bit budget restricted (just do to the save away bit mentioned above) I would assume you aren't going to be shooting thousands of rounds through the rifle at one time each weekend. As such, I personally think some things listed on the chart mean little or are actually a negative. A chrome lined barrel will last longer but typically isn't quite as accurate. If you are just blasting at things within pistol range it really doesn't matter from an accuracy point of view either.

So do you want chrome lined (longer life but less accuracy potential) or not?

How hard are you going to run the rifle? How many rounds are you planning on shooting in one session? Is a stoppage something that will just shorten a day at the range or is it something that will ruin a course or cost you your life? How many rounds do you plan to shoot before cleaning? All of this will determine if many of the features you get with say BCM are worth the price over say Stag.

You do get some options that may be very important if you buy a rifle that has more features on the "chart" but that importance depends more on how hard you run the rifle. For me, the RRA and Stag rifles have been more than adequate in the reliability department. That said, I don't run them in courses, I clean them after a few hundred rounds, I can replace anything that has worn since I clean/check them frequently, and if one stops I switch to a different gun at the range. I would feel comfortable that both of these rifles would work in a HD situation, but that isn't their primary role for me.

So first look at how you really plan to use these rifles, how hard you plan to run them, and what really matters to you, then buy what fits those desires. Personally for me, the next AR I buy is going to be a NM rifle of some sort.

 

[Sky]

The stock hand guards are easy to replace and quad rails are available from $39 up to ten times that much...Weight and manufacture being the main difference. Cheap can be found at Cdnn also expensive.

My experience is a 16" Ar is much easier to sell than a 24" varmint type rifle. The last two ARs I purchased were both over $1400 new yet I paid less than a thousand for one that had a cheap scope on it and $1100 for the other 20" with match trigger and a $300 scope.

The 16" ARs are pretty much an all purpose kinda gun with the weight and accuracy being nice. You start hanging quad rails, bi-pod, optics, vertical hand grip, and bubble gum on them and the weight goes up quickly...Just depends on what you are going to use them for. Some of mine are two heavy to go trekking and they are mostly used for tree stand or fixed location shooting. Even my little bare bones 14.5" made legal by a flash suppressor weighs to much when the night scope is added for a ten mile hike at night (so do I ). What ever you decide to do whether target, hunting, Zombie, or home defense welcome to the force of the Darkside. You will see just how strong the force can be...I gonna save my candle.


Get on youtube and watch some vids on cleaning and operation...a picture is worth a thousand words.

I would get a flat top only because it gives you more options on sights and optics.

 

[kwelz]

First off you will hear the term Mil Spec thrown around a lot before this thread it done. Most people use it wrong. Mil Spec or more accurately the TDP, is what a lot of people use as a baseline. They feel a rifle must meet those minimums to be considered for purchase. I fall into that category but you may find your needs differ so keep that in mind when I, or anyone else gives you advice.

I am a big proponent of Bravo Company. I have no personal stake in it but they offer top quality at a very reasonable price. Spikes seems good but there are still a few lingering questions about some things that keeps me from getting any of their complete rifles yet. although I did build my main weapon off of one of their upper and lower sets.

The aforementioned colt is a staple of the AR15 world and hard to beat but you are going to pay a tad bit more than you would for the same quality from BCM.

Now the two most important parts of an AR15 are going to be the Barrel and bolt. These two parts are subject to the highest stress of any part. In anything except a bench bun I recommend a chrome lined bore and chamber. You lose a TINY bit of accuracy and gain a lot in reliability and durability. Cold hammer forging is also very good and gives you a longer barrel life but is not a must have for most people. The bolt should be properly built and tested. This means shot peened and MPI tested.

M4 Feedramps are a part of the barrel extension. They offer help with two things. 1: Feeding of longer and heavier bullets. 2: More reliable feeding under high rates of fire.

#2 isn't an issue for most of us, #1 however can be depending on what you keep loaded in the gun. I use 75 grain Hornady Tap for my Defense ammo so the Feed Raps are a must for me. Honestly there is no reason not to have them and I wish some companies would stop cutting corner and just put them on all guns.

As for configuration it is hard to go wrong with a 16 inch barrel. You still retain plenty of velocity for Short and mid range use and have a much more controllable weapon for short range use.

Someone else already mentioned flattop uppers. Unless you are going for a retro build you should go with a flattop. You can then put on Optics, Irons, or both.

If you are buying from a local store and are limited to their selection I should look at it this way.

Brands I would buy without hesitation in order.
Knights Armaments
Noveske
BCM
Daniel Defense
Colt
LMT

Brands I would recommend with warning that they are not optimal:
S&W
Spikes

It is also worth noting that I don't have a single factory AR. All of mine are a mishmash of parts from various companies. Some companies I trust for every part but others I only trust for some parts. For instance I would use a RRA lower or upper but not one of their bolts or barrels.

In the end though it comes down to your intended use and what you feel best suits your needs. If you are anything like me, you will find this changes as you learn more about what works and what doesn't

 

[kwelz]

Zero, now you are just showing off. LOL nice builds. How do you like the Trijicon on the Mk12? I use the 1-4 and 1.25-4 on my carbines but I haven't had any trigger time on their bigger siblings and am curious as to how they perform at long ranges.

 

[benzy2]

It is also worth noting that I don't have a single factory AR. All of mine are a mishmash of parts from various companies. Some companies I trust for every part but others I only trust for some parts. For instance I would use a RRA lower or upper but not one of their bolts or barrels.

In the end though it comes down to your intended use and what you feel best suits your needs. If you are anything like me, you will find this changes as you learn more about what works and what doesn't

This is why it is important to decide what you want to do with a rifle. As Azizza points out, he wouldn't use an RRA bolt or barrel. For me, I would rather an RRA barrel. They shoot VERY good. I use my AR for punching paper and shooting small game. I put accuracy at the top of the list of importance. The RRA barrel and bolt don't go through the testing of others which makes them a little less proven in the absolute reliability category. This is an example where we differ 100% on what to get because we have differing opinions on what the rifle is to be used for. Neither of us are wrong for our desires. It just comes down to what you want to do with the rifle.

I will say that the companies listed by Azizza are all quality. They build reliable parts. They would make for a great all around rifle. I'm not personally sold on paying extra for MPI testing but if the cost is the same I don't see why it would hurt. As I said though, I use mine for fun and not for life or death.

 

[Tirod]

In short, the current fad is the M4 style firearm with tactical entry team, close quarters combat enhancing parts to fend of the zombie hordes. It's also an extremist application. In a city of 50,000, there's only two dozen tactical entry team specialists actually being paid to do the job. The rest of the week, they're cops.

Fixed stocks, and A3 upper, and handguards aren't real fashionable right now, but that's what the M16 had for 40 years, and it gets the job done better for more people doing a wider variety of jobs. The majority of AR's are 2MOA shooters, and the majority of shooters have to work and practice to keep that skill level up. As each incremental increase in accuracy is sought, the price of the improvement increases geometrically, but the improvement is only additive.

If a particular part or feature enhances a specific task, it has to trade off utility in the other direction. The best recommendation is to find the balance of what you need it to do, and stick with that.

 

[Sky]

Something that has become more important to me is the manufactures guarantee. Bushmaster has a one year 10 day guarantee from date of purchase. Del-Ton has a life time guarantee. Been meaning to call CMMG and confirm their policy. Not really that big of a deal but it might be important on down the road for you. Also I really would check on line there are some good deals to be had.

 

[gf1723]

Wow, thanks for all the replies! I greatly appreciate all your advice. It will take me a good 6-8 months to even save up some money unless I have a very good night at a casino or something. I have plenty of time to think about it. I'll probably go with a Colt or BCM, they seem to have a good reputation around the Internet and this board. I trust that you guys know more about these firearms than I do.

Off to Youtube I go!

 

[ugaarguy]

In short, the current fad is the M4 style firearm with tactical entry team, close quarters combat enhancing parts to fend of the zombie hordes. It's also an extremist application.

I've never thought myself an extremist. I was issued an M16A2 (when deemed necessary) while in the USAF. Yes, it'll get the job done just fine, but compared to an M4 style carbine it's heavy, long, and a PITA in tight spaces (google AN/TYQ-23 if you wanna see the tight spaces I dealt with). My personal AR type rifles are M4 style. They're lighter, shorter, and easier to move around in tight spaces (like my smallish apartment). The nice thing about the modularity of AR-15s is that the lower receiver is the same across the board, and therfore the controls are in the same place. With a good BUIS, or even a detachable carry handle, the sight picture on an M4 style carbine is also the same as on an M16A1/A2 style AR-15. With the stock fully extended, and me in a proper shooting position I can hit standard human silhouette style targets with an M4gery at equal distances (200 - 300 yards) to what I can do with a 20" fixed stock AR - though I'm sure any US Marine, or other skilled rifleman, with his M16A4 could outclass me at those distances & further. The flat top upper, whether it be on a rifle or carbine, also makes it very easy to mount a wide variety of optics, and maintain proper cheek weld on the stock. I see the medium contour bbl carbine as a very practical incarnation of the AR-15 type rifle. I'm sorry you view that as extremism.

I think another part of the reason that folks went to the carbines was that most rifles offered on the market were A2 style with heavy bbls. Those configuartions are not only long, but also rather front heavy. There's a small resurgence underway of going to goverment profile, or even lighter contour, 20" bbls on AR-15 rifles. The 18" SPR style rifle is also slowly building in popularity since it's a near ideal middle ground for many folks. I owned a Colt SP1 AR-15 (M16A1 style configuration), and while the bbl was a bit long for my liking it was an incredibly well balanced rifle.

Again, they're just tools, and we all configure them differently based on our needs & wants. Let's not forget that with the pushing of two pins a different upper assembly can be dropped onto your existing lower, and you can thereby change the configuration in a matter of seconds. Just my thoughts.

 

[migkillertwo]

I personally have a DSA ZM4 lower receiver with a Spikes Tactical M4LE upper receiver. Can't say I'm too big a fan of DSA or the ZM4. The trigger pull is a little stiff compared to my Dad's LMT Defender.

If you're looking for a tier 1 rifle, you can't go wrong with the Spikes Tactical ST-15LE.

However, I've heard nothing bad about CMMG's Bargain Bin Rifles. You can get the Chrome-lined 1/7 twist model for 650$, or the Nitrided 1/9 twist for 599$ before shipping and transfers. Nitriding is almost just as good as Chrome-lining without the loss in accuracy. However the only bad thing really is the twist rate, which will not stabilize the popular 75 or 77 grn bullets that are commonly used as home defense.

And others have said the same, but I agree. Any good FFL dealer should be willing to do a transfer for 20-40$. I personally wouldn't buy from a gun shop unless you know exactly the model you are looking for. I don't trust most gun shop guys for technical advice on guns especially when they themselves are trying to sell the guns

 

[Sky]

Think Tirod meant CQB against Zombie hordes with 10,000 rounds fired a night only because we haven't seen any lately. Must have already wiped them out.

Extreme/Extremest kinda like getting a $600 AR or a $1500; both work usually and if not either or can be fixed. Problem being the guys who have to use them LEO/Military want the best perceived quality available with the less likelihood of failure and I agree.

Just us common folk don't usually get shot if we have a failure. I think and will be corrected if I am wrong, surely, that if your weapon when purchased is inspected and checked for proper installation of various parts and makes it through the first 500 rounds and again inspected you prolly got a keeper regardless of manufacture. You should always pay attention when cleaning to wear patterns and lose parts; seems like the 8000 to 10,000 rounds is another time of critical inspection for impending failure from what I have been told. Others say every 5000 rounds change a few things.

That does not mean it will blow up at 10,001 just that you probably got a good AR and if it has functioned for you AND YOUR TYPE OF SHOOTING until now/so far/ you might get another 20,000 rounds or more out of her/it/ the thang.

 

[Zerodefect]

Zero, now you are just showing off. LOL nice builds. How do you like the Trijicon on the Mk12? I use the 1-4 and 1.25-4 on my carbines but I haven't had any trigger time on their bigger siblings and am curious as to how they perform at long ranges.

I haven't been able to go too far with the Accupoint yet, but it's much faster than I thought at hitting moving targets at 50-100yds. Good glass. Great recticle for speed. Jury is still out on precision, I was just plinking with fmj.

I hold the SPR behind the AFG. I only use the AFG if I'm going to blade alot, or if I'm setting the rifle on a window sill or such. Might be a more useful rifle than I thought.

The 6920 so far has been dissappointing at longer ranges. I need to reach out on the handguards to shoot well. I tried the carbine guards, but to steady the rifle the best, my support hand needs to go right over the front sight base.

So the 6920 is going to get it's sight cut off, and I'll be puting a Daniel Defense 12" rail system on it.

 

[kwelz]

Zero, that is the route I went as well. I train holding really far out on the gun in pretty much all situations.

If you don't want to cut the FS down you can look at the DD rails made to go around the front sight. Bravo Co. Has them on sale at about half price quite often.

If you do cut it down I suggest looking at the Troy TRX extreme rail as well. A bit lighter and easier to handle. Then you can rail only where you need.

 

[Mr. T]

Bushmaster "Patrolman's Carbine"; it's chambered in 5.56 NATO. It's a good functional gun. I've fired thousands of rounds through mine and never had a failure to feed or a problem in any way with it. It is a very accurate rifle and it has handled every type of ammo that I've run through it. I haven't fired any of the cheap stuff through it, but any of the major brands have run flawlessly through it.

 

[Zerodefect]

Zero, that is the route I went as well. I train holding really far out on the gun in pretty much all situations.

If you don't want to cut the FS down you can look at the DD rails made to go around the front sight. Bravo Co. Has them on sale at about half price quite often.

If you do cut it down I suggest looking at the Troy TRX extreme rail as well. A bit lighter and easier to handle. Then you can rail only where you need.

The front sight has to come off. I sometimes put my thumb all the way over onto the top rail. The FSB is exactly where I want my thumb. (And the smooth Recce look )

I wish the TRX was thicker. The Larue is my favorite for a carbine, but I want to try the cut down FSB or a clamp on DD gas block. Not a fan of the set screw Larue gas block. So I'm leaning towards the DD lite because I know thier gas block will fit, and I might be able to fit my cut off gas block.