Question coming but first background: I am a 63 year old man. Just beginning handgun shooting. First time I fired centerfire handguns was in April at my nephew's house. He has three Beretta 9mm autos and two SW 357 double action revolvers. I spent three days with him and did a load of shooting. He said I did pretty good for a beginner because I at least could keep pretty close to the target and was not going off the paper. However, we noticed something over the weekend. I was consistently shooting left and high. To digress: I am right-handed but my master eye is my left. Per an article I read by a marksman I am shooting right-handed but using my left eye to sight in case this means anything. Now, also I will emphasize I have had no formal training in my two hand hold and my nephew is not formally trained either. However, he is pretty good about punching the paper in the 10 ring at 15-25 yards. Anyway, it seems to me that since my trigger finger is my right that if I was pulling the gun I would be shooting right, but again, I am shooting a foot left. After that weekend, just recently, I talked with a gun dealer in Des Moines who claimed he had been a sharpshooter and sniper in the service. He was showing me how to use my non-shooting hand, that is my left, for the hold and how to use my left forefinger extended and placed on the left side of the trigger guard to balance the pressure equally between both hands. I have tried this and still shoot to the left. Today I went to the range by myself and was shooting my Ruger New Vaquero, 7 1/2 barrel and 45 LC. I was not shooting high very much but still shooting left regardless of two-hand hold, off-hand while standing, or sitting at the shooting table shooting one-handed. So, why am I consistently shooting to the left? Does it have something to do with the way I am sighting? I appreciate any help on this. Thanks so much in advance. Moe
Beginner's question about handgun shooting accuracy
- Thread starter moewadle
- Start date
- Status
cmidkiff
Member
Welcome 
Always a good time to start shooting!
'gun dealer who was sniper and special forces'... Unbelieveable how many of those ex-sniper's you find these days
Take it with a pinch of salt.
I'm sure there are others here who might be good enough to assist you with your grip and stance. I'm getting to be a decent shot, but not near the point where I want to start instructing people!
I highly recommend taking an entry level pistol class. A good instuctor can stop bad habits before they become a problem, and get you safely on your way to enjoying shooting to it's fullest.
One suggestion... be carefull with your weak hand, extending your weak index finger past the cylinder gap on those .357's isn't such a great idea!
Enjoy!
Always a good time to start shooting!'gun dealer who was sniper and special forces'... Unbelieveable how many of those ex-sniper's you find these days
Take it with a pinch of salt.I'm sure there are others here who might be good enough to assist you with your grip and stance. I'm getting to be a decent shot, but not near the point where I want to start instructing people!
I highly recommend taking an entry level pistol class. A good instuctor can stop bad habits before they become a problem, and get you safely on your way to enjoying shooting to it's fullest.
One suggestion... be carefull with your weak hand, extending your weak index finger past the cylinder gap on those .357's isn't such a great idea!
Enjoy!
More than likely it's trigger squeeze imo.
Handguns are very, very, very sensitive to fundamental errors and take alot more training to become proficient with than rifles imo.
You could very well be PUSHING on the trigger which is sending the barrel to the left, along with your shot groups. Like wise, if you PULL on the trigger, it will bring the barrel, and your groups, to the right.
Do some dry firing and focus on your trigger squeeze. Slowly take up slack, and pull straight back. Focus on the front sight post and see if your barrel is moving left or right.
You can use a variation of the "dime-washer" drill used in military basic marksmanship instruction. Clear your weapon, take a cleaning rod and insert it into the barrel, take a coin, or a washer, and balance it on the cleaning rod, take up a sight picture, and slowly squeeze the trigger. Start off with a coin or washer that will stay in place relatively easy, and than switch to smaller ones that require more steadiness as you progress.
As mentioned, take the time to enroll in a decent class, and learn the fundamentals. They are the foundation that everything else is built on.
The 2 most common fundamental mistakes I make with a handgun are grip and trigger squeeze. I do a LOT of dry firing to try and compensate for my sloppiness, and it usually works out very well for me. You can dry fire anywhere, and it pays dividends when it's time to go live.
Luck.
Handguns are very, very, very sensitive to fundamental errors and take alot more training to become proficient with than rifles imo.
You could very well be PUSHING on the trigger which is sending the barrel to the left, along with your shot groups. Like wise, if you PULL on the trigger, it will bring the barrel, and your groups, to the right.
Do some dry firing and focus on your trigger squeeze. Slowly take up slack, and pull straight back. Focus on the front sight post and see if your barrel is moving left or right.
You can use a variation of the "dime-washer" drill used in military basic marksmanship instruction. Clear your weapon, take a cleaning rod and insert it into the barrel, take a coin, or a washer, and balance it on the cleaning rod, take up a sight picture, and slowly squeeze the trigger. Start off with a coin or washer that will stay in place relatively easy, and than switch to smaller ones that require more steadiness as you progress.
As mentioned, take the time to enroll in a decent class, and learn the fundamentals. They are the foundation that everything else is built on.
The 2 most common fundamental mistakes I make with a handgun are grip and trigger squeeze. I do a LOT of dry firing to try and compensate for my sloppiness, and it usually works out very well for me. You can dry fire anywhere, and it pays dividends when it's time to go live.
Luck.
TimboKhan
Member
dry firing (or "snapping in" as we called it in the USMC) is a very useful and effective way to practice certain fundamentals. I agree that you should take up this practice. It does not, however, take the place of actual shooting! My guess is that if you are left and high consistently, you are probably mugging the trigger. By that, I mean that you are putting to much of your finger on the trigger. Generally, it is best to get in the habit of just using the pad of your finger from tip to first joint. I started practicing doing just that, and my marksmanship improved immediatly.
Also, my number one most given out piece of advice for accurate shooting:
Concentrate on the SIGHT not the target. When I shoot, my main mantra is "frontsightfrontsightfrontsightfrontsight". It will seem a little wierd at first, but trust me, focus on the sight and you will be golden.
Also, my number one most given out piece of advice for accurate shooting:
Concentrate on the SIGHT not the target. When I shoot, my main mantra is "frontsightfrontsightfrontsightfrontsight". It will seem a little wierd at first, but trust me, focus on the sight and you will be golden.
RecoilRob
Member
Getting an accurate pneumatic pellet pistol and LOTS of practice will show great dividends in your shooting.
.177 Match pellets cost less than 1cent each in bulk and a good pistol will keep ALL shots in an aspirin tablet at 10 meters.
Most good guns have really nice sights and triggers and are quiet enough for indoor practice without ear protection. Also, the slow muzzle velocity forces you to follow through and not quit on the shot. Trigger glitches show up easier without muzzle blast and recoil too.
Dry firing a pistol is fine for developing the firing muscles but immediate feedback on where the shot went helps me more than just dry snapping.
Your shooting precision will improve faster and cheaper with the airgun than any cartridge firearm IMO.
.177 Match pellets cost less than 1cent each in bulk and a good pistol will keep ALL shots in an aspirin tablet at 10 meters.
Most good guns have really nice sights and triggers and are quiet enough for indoor practice without ear protection. Also, the slow muzzle velocity forces you to follow through and not quit on the shot. Trigger glitches show up easier without muzzle blast and recoil too.
Dry firing a pistol is fine for developing the firing muscles but immediate feedback on where the shot went helps me more than just dry snapping.
Your shooting precision will improve faster and cheaper with the airgun than any cartridge firearm IMO.
brucets11
Member
moewadle, sorry but I can't really help you but I am glad to know that I'm not the only new shooter. At 46 I shot my first hand gun this past spring when my 20 year old son had an interest. I took him to a local training class and we've both been shooting about 100 rounds per week since last spring.
I got quite a bit of help through a local range (www.sim-trainer.com) that provides comprehensive hand gun training. Maybe you can find such a training facility near your location.
I got quite a bit of help through a local range (www.sim-trainer.com) that provides comprehensive hand gun training. Maybe you can find such a training facility near your location.
RustyShackelford
member
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2006
- Messages
- 4,018
3"x5" cards target use/CDR Richard Marcinko-SEAL 6
As a general rule, if you can hit a 3"x5" card at about 30 feet your doing ok for basic marksmanship.
I say 30 feet because that is the distance of most LE related shootings. An LAPD research report showed that most sworn officers involved in shootings were at a range of about 28 feet.
Also, CDR Richard Marcinko(US Navy SEAL, retired) wrote in his non-fiction books about his SEAL training and US Navy career that he would use simple 3"x5" cards to train his men while shooting handguns(1911a1 .45 pistols, 9mm 92-F pistols, .357mag S&W model 66 revolvers). For more details get Rogue Warrior and/or Red Cell.
As a general rule, if you can hit a 3"x5" card at about 30 feet your doing ok for basic marksmanship.
I say 30 feet because that is the distance of most LE related shootings. An LAPD research report showed that most sworn officers involved in shootings were at a range of about 28 feet.
Also, CDR Richard Marcinko(US Navy SEAL, retired) wrote in his non-fiction books about his SEAL training and US Navy career that he would use simple 3"x5" cards to train his men while shooting handguns(1911a1 .45 pistols, 9mm 92-F pistols, .357mag S&W model 66 revolvers). For more details get Rogue Warrior and/or Red Cell.
22-rimfire
Member
Dig around on the intenet and look for the army marksmanship guide. It is excellent for diagnosing shooting problems. It is hard core... no coffee, no cigs, no alcohol, etc. I bought a copy for under $10 as I wanted a copy that I could thumb through rather than looking online. Online version does not allow printing.
Please give an exact title
22rimfire...thanks for the idea. I am a book person and buy books on the internet. However, I would appreciate it if you gave me the exact title as written on the hard copy. Then I do a search of used book sites. Thanks in advance. Moe US Navy 1960-67 Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 1965
22rimfire...thanks for the idea. I am a book person and buy books on the internet. However, I would appreciate it if you gave me the exact title as written on the hard copy. Then I do a search of used book sites. Thanks in advance. Moe US Navy 1960-67 Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 1965
porterdog
Member
warmrain
Member
warmrain
Member
Moe,
Spend some time dry firing. Be very, very careful that your gun is unloaded and get the ammo all out of the room.
When you are done, if you reload for carry, put the gun away... Do not leave it out, it is too easy to pick it up for one more dry fire. I always speak out loud "This is now a real gun, if I pull the trigger it will fire!" when I reload and reholster.
OK... now that that is out of the way.
Dry fire and watch that front sight. See if it moving up and left. Work on your grip and the finger placement on the trigger. The trigger finger should be placed so that the trigger is outboard of the last joint. I think it helps if the first section of your finger (the one closest to your hand, first joint outward of the knuckle) is NOT touching the frame, better if it is parellel to the frame. You might try adjusting your trigger fingertip placement to achieve this and see if it has a possitive effect.
Spend some time dry firing. Be very, very careful that your gun is unloaded and get the ammo all out of the room.
When you are done, if you reload for carry, put the gun away... Do not leave it out, it is too easy to pick it up for one more dry fire. I always speak out loud "This is now a real gun, if I pull the trigger it will fire!" when I reload and reholster.
OK... now that that is out of the way.
Dry fire and watch that front sight. See if it moving up and left. Work on your grip and the finger placement on the trigger. The trigger finger should be placed so that the trigger is outboard of the last joint. I think it helps if the first section of your finger (the one closest to your hand, first joint outward of the knuckle) is NOT touching the frame, better if it is parellel to the frame. You might try adjusting your trigger fingertip placement to achieve this and see if it has a possitive effect.
BobCat
Member
Porterdog,
Thank you, thank you for the link to the Army Marksmanship Manual .pdf!
I have been reading it, on and off, at http://www.bullseyepistol.com (Moe, that web site is another good source of information) - but having the whole .pdf file, able to print, is just super!
Moe, these gentlemen have given you some very good advice, especially about dry firing. If I were a real good pistol shot, I'd try to help - but since I'm not, all I'll say is that sometimes I will pull the last shot 'way out at 9 o'clock (i.e. way to the left), because I lost focus on the front sight just before I broke the shot.
It is possible that using your left eye is having an effect, but if I hold my right hand out and look through my right eye, like I'm sighting, and then close my right eye and only look with my left, the "sights" are off to the right, not to the left. This may not simulate the situation well, but it is the best I can think of right now.
My guess is that if you focus on the front sight and keep the same amount of light on both sides of it, and just add pressure until the shot breaks, and then try to "follow through" and keep your eye on the front sight through the recoil, you will see a distinct improvement. Hang in there and have fun!
Regards,
Andrew
Thank you, thank you for the link to the Army Marksmanship Manual .pdf!
I have been reading it, on and off, at http://www.bullseyepistol.com (Moe, that web site is another good source of information) - but having the whole .pdf file, able to print, is just super!
Moe, these gentlemen have given you some very good advice, especially about dry firing. If I were a real good pistol shot, I'd try to help - but since I'm not, all I'll say is that sometimes I will pull the last shot 'way out at 9 o'clock (i.e. way to the left), because I lost focus on the front sight just before I broke the shot.
It is possible that using your left eye is having an effect, but if I hold my right hand out and look through my right eye, like I'm sighting, and then close my right eye and only look with my left, the "sights" are off to the right, not to the left. This may not simulate the situation well, but it is the best I can think of right now.
My guess is that if you focus on the front sight and keep the same amount of light on both sides of it, and just add pressure until the shot breaks, and then try to "follow through" and keep your eye on the front sight through the recoil, you will see a distinct improvement. Hang in there and have fun!
Regards,
Andrew
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Interestingly, the target correction chart, Warmrain's suggestion, and a guy I know who is a good Cowboy Action Shooter told me that I was not putting my trigger finger pad far enough onto the trigger and demonstrated with a firearm (he works in the gun department) how I would shoot left by not having my first knuckle close enough (but not on) the trigger. Anyway, three independent sources corroborate what I am doing wrong (among a bunch of other things.) Moe
warmrain
Member
Moe,
Let us know how it works out...
Let us know how it works out...
I'd say the hits on the left side of the target are caused by too fast squeeze of the trigger. I'm not a very experienced shooter either though, so don't take this advice as written in stone. However, how I was instruced on this issue, was to put my index finger up as if I was holding a gun and then move it like I was pulling the trigger. For a right handed person, it will point on the left - which is where the hits will move. That's why you have to counter the effect by squeezing the trigger with almost the tip of your finger very, very gently, but steadily.
10-Ring
Member
Welcome to THR & the world of shooting!
Because of vision limitations, I too shoot right handed, left eye dominant. It might be more a technique issue rather than a dominant eye/ strong hand issue. Try taking a beginner's pistol shooting course to get a base of proper technique under your belt
Because of vision limitations, I too shoot right handed, left eye dominant. It might be more a technique issue rather than a dominant eye/ strong hand issue. Try taking a beginner's pistol shooting course to get a base of proper technique under your belt
Someone asked me to report how this comes out. This is a bit early...but I did go out today and fired 100 rounds through the .45 revolver. I practiced getting more of my finger on the trigger as instructed. Of course, I was trying to work on the trigger squeeze, breathing, etc. However, I started getting some shots within the 10 ring, mostly around 7-8. I was only at 15 yards but I am convinced that most of that improvement was simply getting more of the finger cushion on the trigger, that is, nearer the first joint and further from the finger tip. Moe
warmrain
Member
Moe,
For me the amount of finger pad is also a function of the size of the grip and what I think is a significant factor...
It helps me if the first section of finger (the one of three that is closest to your hand) is parellel to the pistol frame. This helps because the knuck joint (the one closest to or "on" your hand) should not be flexing during the trigger squeeze. It mostly is the one in the middle and the end.
This is just what seems to help me...
For me the amount of finger pad is also a function of the size of the grip and what I think is a significant factor...
It helps me if the first section of finger (the one of three that is closest to your hand) is parellel to the pistol frame. This helps because the knuck joint (the one closest to or "on" your hand) should not be flexing during the trigger squeeze. It mostly is the one in the middle and the end.
This is just what seems to help me...
It is now late September
and I go to the range once weekly. I am getting a bit better. I have a 22 revolver now with which to practice also. I have now started shooting at 25 yards and using clay pigeons set up in the dirt berm for targets for a little variety over paper. I am hitting them enough with the 22 and 45 to keep me seriously interested. (For those who wonder I clean up after myself at the range and then pick up after a bunch of other people also. It is a public, unsupervised range, so of course people leave it trashed.)
and I go to the range once weekly. I am getting a bit better. I have a 22 revolver now with which to practice also. I have now started shooting at 25 yards and using clay pigeons set up in the dirt berm for targets for a little variety over paper. I am hitting them enough with the 22 and 45 to keep me seriously interested. (For those who wonder I clean up after myself at the range and then pick up after a bunch of other people also. It is a public, unsupervised range, so of course people leave it trashed.)
Jack19
Member
Moe, you've got 20 good years of shooting ahead of you. You ain't old.
Brian Dale
Member
Another one joins the fold...
Well done, Sir.
Well done, Sir.
Jack19
that is what I figured also. I have 20 good years of shooting yet. In fact, I was committed to staying home today and washing windows all day because I am going to a gun show Saturday but it is 75 and sunny today....hell, I'm retired...some of the windows got cleaned. I went to the range with my six-gun and shot a bunch of .22s. Life is good and thanks for the encouragement to all of you.
that is what I figured also. I have 20 good years of shooting yet. In fact, I was committed to staying home today and washing windows all day because I am going to a gun show Saturday but it is 75 and sunny today....hell, I'm retired...some of the windows got cleaned. I went to the range with my six-gun and shot a bunch of .22s. Life is good and thanks for the encouragement to all of you.
- Status
Similar threads
