Beginning 30-06 loading

[ASCTLC]

Hi everyone, Been reading a while and thought I had it understood. I'm beginning this endevour by first figuring out the OAL for the 165 gr Remington Core Lokt using my once fired Remington cases and the OAL for the Partition 180 gr. using my once fired Federal HE cases (from my Fed light mag I use for elk hunting).

The fired cases have mouths too loose for me to insert a bullet and expect them to stay so I cleaned them up, lubed them and set up my depriming and full length resizer. Now that they're resized, here's where the questions come...

1) I thought the case mouth would bell just a tiny bit to allow the bullet to begin setting in it for the seating process. Not too big a problem with the base shape of the Partition but the Rem Core Lokt doesn't stand a chance being as flat as it is.

The Lee carbide dies flare the mouth for my 9mm cases but the Hornady dies for my 30-06 don't seem to follow this method. Any suggestions?

2) Gotta start somewhere, so I'm planning on starting at .010 short of the lands. Any suggestions to counter my very first approach like should I start at .015 the very first time?

Thanks,
Andy

 

[rcmodel]

You do not flair the case mouth when loading any bottleneck rifle case with any jacketed bullet design. Cast lead bullets maybe, but never jacketed.

Just size & expand, chamfer & debur the case mouth, and the flat base bullets will seat with little effort.

Seating to the lands with hunting ammo is seldom if ever necessary to get acceptable hunting accuracy.

Seat to the bullet cannelure just as Remington intended, and test them.
You might be surprised.

rc

 

[Roadkill]

Use you deburring tool and ream out the inside neck of the shell case. Then use a neck lube. All it has to do is barely fit. Make sure the bullet is sitting straight. I don't bell anything.

 

[rcmodel]

Then use a neck lube.

No, don't use a neck lube.

You want the case neck clean and dry when the bullet is seated to get proper neck tension.

I've never even heard of anyone neck-lubing before seating bullets.

rc

 

[ASCTLC]

Thanks RC. Figured if I had control I'd approach this as I would a target round for accuracy to begin learning.

The Remington Core Lokt is gonna be my plinking bullet for a while and what I figured I'd focus the majority of my efforts on. My thinking is if I can figure out how to get best accuracy with the Core Lokt, the same approach to attain it can be used towards the Partition.

Another issue I'm having is how tight it is to chamber the empty case. I read a previous post to try adjusting the die down a little tighter in the press to bump the shoulder down a little more and that person replied they had success with that. I'm not though. My press handle is already bumping over at max ram height but maybe that bumping over I'm getting should be even stronger? I'm leery of making it leverage too much and prematurely wear out my press (Lyman Orange Crusher).
Maybe Hornady Dies just aren't very good?
Case length is 2.492 (starts out at 2.485 before depriming and resizing)
Case neck is .003 smaller than a loaded cartridge
Maybe I need to lube the inside of the case neck to keep the expander from stretching the case when pulled out?

 

[dmazur]

There are folks with lots more experience who can add to this -

You may be having headspace problems. That is, if you don't have the resizing die adjusted correctly, the rifle is trying to "crush" the brass in order to chamber it. This is a different dimension than case length. One way to measure cartridge headspace to see if it is in spec is to use a Wilson type cartridge headspace gauge. If your rifle has correct headspace, and you're between "steps" on the gauge, your ammo should chamber OK and be safe.

Case length can also be a problem, if it is so long that the brass is being crimped in the rifling. Brass usually has to be trimmed following resizing, due to neck stretch. The same cartridge headspace gauge mentioned above can be used to check case length following resizing.

Incorrect headspace and case length can both be serious issues, resulting in head separation or overpressure.

I'm an "old fashioned" reloader in some ways, using RCBS case lube on a pad and the old "roll the nylon brush on the pad" method of lubing case necks as I clean them with the brush. There are far more modern methods, but I seem to have good luck with this ancient one.

 

[NCsmitty]

I'm leery of making it leverage too much and prematurely wear out my press (Lyman Orange Crusher).

Unless you load more than I think, you'll not wear out that press in your lifetime. Don't be so tentative in bumping the shoulder back. Move your die down in 1/8 turns and check the fit of the empty brass in your chamber. At least make the effort to correct the problem by these simple suggestions. I have confidence in your Hornady dies.

Maybe I need to lube the inside of the case neck to keep the expander from stretching the case when pulled out?

If your dies are new, the expander ball may need to be smoothed by use, or by using some steel wool on it. (remove the expander stem to smooth) Make sure your case necks are clean inside(no powder soot), either by tumbling or manually brushing.
I use the Lyman case neck brush kit to clean and lube the inside necks on some stubborn cases that are sticky feeling. They use dry mica powder. I try to avoid using case lube inside the cases as it can affect the powder and give improper case grip to the bullet, as rcmodel alluded too.
Here's a link to what I'm talking about.
www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=256493

Everyone has their own technique that they develop, and it will get easier. Be safe. It's an enjoyable lifelong hobby.


NCsmitty

 

[Sunray]

"...starting at .010 short of the lands..." Start with the max OAL given in your manual for both bullets. Ignore any cannelures. Mucking about with the OAL is part of tweaking a load for the absolute best accuracy. Not a terribly important thing for hunting loads.
Concentrate on the 165 grain bullets. They'll kill any game you care to hunt with no fuss.
"...fired cases have mouths too loose..." Perfectly normal. The cases have to be resized. Flaring the case mouth is a handgun cartridge thing. The chamfering and deburring, rcmodel speaks of, takes the place of the flare. Has to be done every time after trimming too.
Brass reloaded for the same rifle it was fired out of can be neck sized only. New brass or that fired out of another rifle must be full length resized first.
Neck lubing is only done when resizing. It's really to lube the expander button a bit. I've always just jammed the case mouth into the lube pad.

 

[ASCTLC]

I greatly appreciate all of you taking the time to respond!

I screwed the die in a little further and now it chambers with no more effort than a factory loaded cartridge. Sure is a lot of "bumping over" but...

What kinda confuses me a little is these once fired cases were fired from my rifle, not someone elses. I sure don't recall the bolt being this difficult to open after the shots. Does the residual warmth of the shot itself loosen the chamber that tiny amount that the case isn't so tight? Just seems strange to me that that would be the case as I'd think the chamber is so thick with metal that surely it wouldn't expand that much after one shot.

I'll look into a headspace guage just in case my rifle is out of spec. Maybe I'll try to find someone in my area that might have one cause once determined and documented there shouldn't be another reason to need it.

I'll start shopping for a trimmer. I suspect I'll need one eventually even if my current resized cases still measure under the max 2.494 published in my reloading manual.

I used a brush to clean the inside of the case mouth but will also try lubing it inside a touch to ease the friction. My plan is to clean and lube for the resize process then clean the case mouth again of any lubricant prior to seating a bullet.

While I now have a decent supply of components (plink and hunting), I don't think I'll be reloading so many at a time that an extra step or two is any big deal for me. As I get better and learn more I might find where a task can be eliminated or changed to reduce effort but until then, extra time isn't anything I concerned with. I'm thirsting for the knowledge of the impacts every decision and step plays more than anything.

I hear everyone about the application of OAL for hunting not really being all that important, I'm nervous not knowing what that true measurement is. Without knowing it I won't ever shake the concern that I have not loaded on or into it.

For the flaring mouth statements, I see now why someone cut two slots in a case mouth for seating a case and bullet to find the lands. I've got planty of cases so sacrificing one of each for such purpose is of no concern for me.

My other concern is to find the bullet seating depth (or each type) and figure out how much capacity the case has in relation to the minimal load to determine if I'm compressing a load. This'll probably take a while to do, but like the seating depth in relation to the lands, I'll be very nervouos that the Fed HE case's reduced capacity (if it is reduced) will compress a load that is not safe to compress.

I'll be starting with the W760 for the 180 gr Nosler Partition because that is what Nosler stated they had luck with and for no other reason than I've gotta start somewhere so why not there. Then I'll try the IMR 4350 and see how that does. I've got these 2 powders and will try them first. Once I find this elk hunting load, I doubt I'll toy with it much. I do well with accepting very good performance even if I know it's not the absolute best possible. Big thing here is finding that load so I don't have to spend such outrageous amounts of money buying factory and hoping they always have my preference available. I still have a few years worth of factory Fed 180 Partition Light Mag left so getting to reloading the 180 Partitions isn't the highest priority right now.

Now the 165 gr Core Lokt will be my test bullet for learning reloading my 30-06. When I learn the fundamentals of loading with this bullet (and I have factory Rem Core Lokt 165 gr to compare with), I stretch to the Hornady 165 gr BTSP. I got 200 of them with the set up I bought from my brother-in-law's brother in law. Got the whole set up for cheap as dirt. I'll probably use the Hornady bullets for pronghorn and mule deer and keep the Core Lokts for plinking and 30-06 reload learning.

Andy

 

[ASCTLC]

OK, now I'm concerned. Using the split down the neck and chamber method to find the lands, I consistantly get +.201 difference from the factory cartridge.



Seating the bullet longer consistantly pushes it back to +.210 longer than the factory loading.

I've gotta be doing something wrong here but how does one screw this up??? HELP!!!

 

[NCsmitty]

I'm glad to hear that you have reconciled your case issue.
You do not need to concern yourself with COAL in a hunting load as long as you do not engage the rifling with the bullet when chambered. If you set your bullet to the depth of the factory ammo, it should be fine, and shoot well. Just check the manuals for the recommended COAL for that particular bullet with the powder charge listed. Of course it needs to fit in your magazine. I do not crimp my reloads except for 30-30 and other lever action rounds, and pistol loads.
Your powders should prove to be excellent choices. W760 loads may call for magnum primers, being it is a ball powder, just check your load manual.


NCsmitty

 

[rcmodel]

I've gotta be doing something wrong here but how does one screw this up??? HELP!!!

No, you didn't screw up.
That's just the way things often are with todays "lawyer enhanced" free-bored chambers.

It reduces pressure and makes it impossible to load a round too long and contact the rifling.

If I was you, I'd fugadaboutit and do like NCsmitty said.
Load to recommended or factory length, which is probably to the bullet cannelure, work up an accurate powder charge, and go hunting.

Loading to the rifling may, or may not help accuracy anyway.
But we know factory .308 & 30-06 match ammo will shoot bug-hole groups out of any accurate rifle, with no consideration to where the bullet stops and the rifling starts.

rc

 

[ASCTLC]

Thanks guys, my hyperventilating is starting to subside...a little...

I have no cannelure on the Partition. Guess I can just seat at the same factory depth.

I've always thought my shots weren't as bad as they showed up at 100 yards and even have some unexpected way out fliers that my sight picture told me should not have happened. These fliers would get out there a good 8" from the area the rest of my shots are landing. Maybe nothing to do with the ammo seating depth but anything I can do to eliminate fliers like I get would help.

Are results like I mention more affected by powder differences?

I have a decent H-S Precision stock on it and it made no difference to my groups/shooting versus the stock plastic Remington that came with it from the factory.

If I've got the room, would you guys think seating as far out as I can would be a worthwhile effort to see if things improve? With seating a minimum .308 of bearing surface into the neck, I'm still .068 off the lands with the Partition.

 

[rcmodel]

Worth a try.

Won't hurt anything as long as you have one caliber seating depth, and they still fit in the magazine.

But I can't imagine either seating depth or powder choice causing flyers 8" out of the group though.

Seems more likely an issue with barrel bedding not returning to the same place each shot, loose scope mounts, a wobbly bench-rest, or something like that.

rc