Beginning Long Range (For Me) w/ Iron Sights

[Charlie98]

I mounted a reddot on my Socom16 when I got it... and it's Scout-style mount. Didn't care for it... just my opinion. Part of it might have been it wasn't the right optic with appropriate eye relief, but even with no magnification, I couldn't really warm up to it.



Although this is off topic... I still don't really get the whole Scout rifle concept. Sure, a lightweight bolt gun has it's own merits, but the insistence of the forward optic... or optics at all... baffles me a bit.

 

[WrongHanded]

Is that the Gunsite Scout? I handled one and it’s nice, but it was in 223 and I was after a 308. The sights it came with were pretty good though. I’m not sure how to feel about scout style scopes. I’ve never used one.

Yes, it's the Gunsite Scout in .308 with an 18.5" barrel. The Leupold scout scope is quite nice. I find it faster to bring up and aquire a target with that setup than a tradition scope (or irons). And the longer eye relief allows for a somewhat less precise cheek weld. It can be used with both eyes open. But it comes at the cost of magnification and precision. It also makes the rifle slightly front heavy, though not overly so.

 

[d2wing]

The use of optics depends on your visual abilities. The older I get the more I need optical sights. The more precise I want to shoot, the more I need optics. Scout scopes set ups don't work for me as well as red dot sights because I have to refocus with a scout scope and my eyes don't like it.

 

[hps1]

Which brings up the question, how much better, if any, could I shoot if I were to use a scope? Would it be better to try different loads with a scope for load development or is it better to test the same way I plan to shoot?

Oversimplification, but you need to be able to see it, to hit it. If you can see the target with properly proportioned iron sights, you can do as well as you could with a scope. I started shooting competition with an issued service grade Garand, progressed to NM Garand which had a slightly thinner front sight (.062" if memory serves). The NM front sight matches width of the aiming black at ranges of 200, 300 & 600 yards, where the standard sight is a bit wider. The smaller NM aperture of the rear sight helps to clarify the front sight.

Over the years, eyesight deteriorated and I found it difficult to see the fine white line (between top of post and bottom of bull) I liked to shoot (w/6 o'clock hold), so switched to shooting a bolt gun with front (and rear) aperture sights, which served me well until my mid 60's, at which time I switched to hunting with a scope.

A Merit adjustable iris rear sight disc allows for adjustment to sharpen the front sight and choosing the correct size front aperture sharpens the target, making groups like the following possible with iron sights:

X ring is .75"; 10 Ring is 1.75" 20 shots fired prone w/iron sights in practice session @ 100 yds.

Same rifle, same course of fire but @ 600 yards. Aperture front and rear sights.

Actually tried shooting F class a couple of times with this same rifle @ 600 yards, prone off bipod w/20X Unertl target scope and did not shoot nearly as well as w/irons....probably more due to the 15 years or so of shooting prone XTC matches than the difference between irons and scope. Never shot off bipod enough to get proper technique. Was also badly distracted by visible mirage in scope that was absent w/irons. W/20x mirage was almost bad enough to make one seasick!

I always liked to use a scope off the bench for load development, then practice like you plan to shoot.

Good advice by @35 Whelen, and follow through mentioned above is also very important to accurate shooting.

The further you shoot, the more critical how shoot the rifle becomes. Things like natural point of aim, cheek weld, sight picture, et al. are of paramount importance. In my experience the best and easiest way to learn is to participate in High Power competition.

"Natural point of aim, cheek weld, sight picture, trigger control & followthrough" are all very important to accuracy and can be practiced to great advantage by dry firing, as well as range time.
Most of the match shooters are quite happy to share their "secrets" with new shooters, so there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained by competing. Biggest mistake I saw over the years was lots of new shooters tried too hard to be competitive too soon. Best bet is to compete with yourself, not with others. So long as you shoot a bit better each outing (or most outings) than the last time, ya done good!

Have fun, and good shooting.

Regards,
hps

 

[Bazoo]

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but I think this applies.

Is there a book or good article that teaches the basics of rifle marksmanship?

I'm looking to improve my skill out to 200 yards offhand or with field positions. With a 22 rifle, unsopported or offhand, standing in pretty decent out to 75 yards or so. But I shoot it much te same as I do a revolver. I'm primarily a handgun shooter.

 

[Charlie98]

Is there a book or good article that teaches the basics of rifle marksmanship?

How about a hands-on approach? Check out the Appleseed shoots. Or, easiest way, enlist...

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

hps1: Wow! I am 67 years old and have a gong at 600 yards that is 2'x 3' that I can barely see on a good day. If you held that group at 600 yards with iron sights I bow down and salute you!!

 

[Bazoo]

I prefer to teach myself anything I can.

I also generally avoid anything that disarms me. My guess would be, having a loaded 1911 on my side would be frowned upon at Appleseed. Though I'm not very familiar with the program.

 

[35 Whelen]

Most of the match shooters are quite happy to share their "secrets" with new shooters, so there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained by competing. Biggest mistake I saw over the years was lots of new shooters tried too hard to be competitive too soon.

Very, very good advice @hps1 .

There's a Vietnam Vet at our local High Power shoots who was really a mentor to me when it came to shooting better. I will forever hear him saying- "Shoot the first "10" you see!" A few years ago while on a New Mexico elk hunt, I spotted a bull walking about 360 yds. out across the head of a canyon. I dropped into the prone position, simultaneously threading my left arm through the sling, just like in Rapid Prone, and as the crosshairs of the 4X scope wavered over the top of his back, just behind his shoulder, I could hear Roy saying- "Shoot the first ten you see!". I did.

35W

 

[hps1]

Is there a book or good article that teaches the basics of rifle marksmanship?

Doing a search on "Rifle Marksmanship" or "NRA Rifle Marksmanship" turns up a number of publications. Not knowing your level of marksmanship skills makes it difficult to recommend the best for you. Here is a very good book for beginners which I used in our club's junior rifle program.
https://www.amazon.com/NRA-Junior-Rifle-Shooting-Handbook/dp/B000WMN9IQ
These came up on a general marksmanship search. Anything written by Gary Anderson will be beneficial to more advanced shooters.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3731062811...1291&msclkid=3bb8302ad66019f6bd0c50fed53c2a64

https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/marksmanship-an-nra-official-guide-to-better-shooting/20164818/item/36002742/?mkwid=HQtBD9yx|dc&pcrid=11558792766&pkw=&pmt=be&slid=&product=36002742&plc=&pgrid=3970758550&ptaid=pla-1101002858882&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Bing+Shopping+|+Everything+Else&utm_term=&utm_content=HQtBD9yx|dc|pcrid|11558792766|pkw||pmt|be|product|36002742|slid||pgrid|3970758550|ptaid|pla-1101002858882|&msclkid=075d2cd642061fae81194c02439513b7#idiq=36002742&edition=21465273

For competition help, search: "David Tubb's Highpower Rifle" helped me a lot in the quest for high master classification. Another book for more advanced shooters is "Successful Shooting" by Bill Pullum & Frank T Hanenkrat.

Lots of good books out there; the trick is to find the one that fits one's level of development. Helpful information can be found in even the most elementary books from time to time.

hps1: Wow! I am 67 years old and have a gong at 600 yards that is 2'x 3' that I can barely see on a good day. If you held that group at 600 yards with iron sights I bow down and salute you!!

@Steel Horse Rider, I was blessed w/a bit better than 20/20 vision but as with all good things, it began to decline around age 55 or so. My goal of making High Master classification was a race against my declining vision, but managed to reach the bar at age 63 (Requires holding a 97% average for five consecutive national match courses of fire). At age 60, I could still see a 6" white spotter placed in the black @ 600 yards (used by most competitors) with my iron sights, so I requested pits to use a 3" spotter in each successive shot on my target, as I found that my next shot tended to "favor the spotter", if that makes sense. Not being able to see the spotter (through my iron sights) enabled me to shoot tighter "groups" on the target. The 3" spotter was placed in each successive shot, but my aiming point was always the 36" aiming black of the 600 yard target, therefore the bullet holes in the spotter are not an actual group shot with the 3" aiming point. Since the 15th shot hit the wooden spindle holding the spotter in my 14th bullet hole, target face was destroyed (had a 12" hole as if it had been shot w/shotgun), making measurement of the actual group impossible.
Nevertheless, that spotter resides on my loading room wall.

The aiming black on a 600 yd. target is 36" diameter, so your gong is a bit narrower than the official target. Not long after I made High Master, I had to give up competition shooting due to arthritis, and it was probably a good thing as iron sights were not kind to my declining vision.

If I had to give one word of advice to upcoming shooters, it would be to never attempt to compete with other shooters; compete with yourself! As long as you are improving, all is good. Those "old codgers" got where they are today by shooting a lot of years. You can't "buy" your way there, all the fancy gadgets are just that, only trigger time will make you competitive with the old timers. I've seen too many promising youngsters drop out when they felt they could never compete with those who came before, but there are no shortcuts. Hang in there!

Regards,
hps

 

[Charlie98]

only trigger time will make you competitive with the old timers. I've seen too many promising youngsters drop out when they felt they could never compete with those who came before, but there are no shortcuts.

Write that on a sticky note and stick it on your forehead. In reality, no matter the discipline, be it shooting a .22 pistol at informal targets, to F-class... the only thing that makes you good, or good enough to compete... is experience. In these days of instant gratification and 'everyone gets a trophy,' it's hard for some people to grasp that concept.

 

[DMW1116]

Vision problems and all, we have an old timer at our range that is an Olympic class pistol shooter and made the team in the late 60s. He’s nearly 80 years old and still shoots one hole groups at 25 yards with three different pistols. It’s downright freaky. We don’t have anyone that does that sort of thing with rifles, but the principles are the same.

Now that I have my sights adjusted I plan to try those 8” targets at 200 yards again, though it appears the standard size at that range is actually 12”? That’s based on the scale of a 36” target at 600 yards from the comment above?

 

[Bazoo]

Preciate the book suggestion.

 

[hps1]

Now that I have my sights adjusted I plan to try those 8” targets at 200 yards again, though it appears the standard size at that range is actually 12”? That’s based on the scale of a 36” target at 600 yards from the comment above?

Aiming black referred to above, 10 ring and X ring are three different things.

First requirement for hitting desired point on the target is to be able to see the target (aiming point) clearly. Ideally the "aiming black" will be, or at least close to, the width of your front sight.

Just for point of reference, the NRA official 200 yard reduction of the 300 and 600 yard target measurements are (Red indicates size of "aiming black"):
.......200 yd. ................300 yd .........600 yd.
Offhand SF & RF.......Sitting RF......Prone SF
X....3"..........................1.9"................1.79"
10..7"...........................4.56"..............3.79"
9....13".........................8.56"..............5.79"
8....19".........................12.56"............7.79"
7....25".........................16.56"............11.79"
6....31".........................20.56"............15.79"
5....37".........................24.56"............19.79"

If your 8" plates appear wider than your front sight you can always paint them like 35 Whelen did in his post above to give smaller aiming point. As the sayin' goes, "aim small, miss small."

Yes, that's a 1903A3 I sold some time back. A few weeks ago I found a Smith Corona 1903A3 in a pawn shop that someone had bedded into a really nice sporter stock and it's a shooter too.

Those 03's and A3's were all shot pretty well. You can generally count on 1.5 moa groups with M2 ball or good handload.

Fact is, it was a new to me1903A3 which drew me out of a 21 year hiatus from competitive shooting in the service. In 1983, the TSRA announced that the final stage of the State Service Rifle Matches at Camp Bullis would be a commemoration of the 80th year anniversary of the adaptation of the 1903 Springfield!

It was to be a 600 yard match, open only to "as issued" 1903's and 1903 A3's; unlimited sighters and 20 rounds for record w/time limit of 22 minutes.

The draw of seeing 50 old Springfields on the line at one time was irresistible, especially since I had just purchased an A3 that was just begging for one last hurrah! How could I pass that up?

And a memorable occasion it was. My classification had long since expired so I entered as unclassified. If memory serves, I had fired over 200 rounds in the three day service rifle match when the announcement "shooters to the line" came over the PA for the Springfield match.

I have to admit I was tempted to scratch as I was really not looking forward to twenty-some rounds of 190 gr. 30-06 in a light bolt gun with that raw elbow. Nope, just gotta do this one. Wrapped a bandana around the elbow, donned the shooting jacket and the A3 didn't disappoint!

Since we had no 600 yard range in my area, I had no zero, just a WAG. Fortunately, I saw my first shot hit the hill behind the target, pushed rear sight down a couple of clicks (my shooting glasses were single vision, so I could not read the numbers on the sight). Thankfully, 2nd sighter was on paper! Made final adjustment and told scorekeeper I was going for record.

Every few shots, I would lose one out at 6 and it took me a couple of rounds to realize the rear sight detent spring was not holding and recoil was moving aperture up. Since I couldn't read the numbers, I just moved down 1 click every 3rd round and with all that wound up the day w/1st Unclassified and I was hooked all over again.

Springfields (and Garands) rule!

Regards,
hps

 

[DMW1116]

No I’m using a standard size front post. The 12” targets I used last week are about the same width as my front post at 100 yards. The 8” target at 200 was too ambitious at that point. It’s a tiny blip on top of this sight post. It looks like a telephone pole with a marble on top. Not a shooter marble either. I’m planning to try a 0.065” post or a KNS aperature front sight with a cross hair.

 

[hps1]

If you change your front sight, I'd go to something like this:
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-par...fle-target-front-sight-17-atc-prod101080.aspx

Changeable apertures let you fit your sight to your target. If you do, allow a good bit of white around your (black) bull. Too little white will tire your eye out quickly.

Regards,
hps

 

[DMW1116]

Definitely getting a thinner front sight post after today, or going back to testing loads on 12” targets. I used some 6” targets today at 100 yards and lining them up was somewhat tricky. Windage was pretty consistently favoring left, which is the opposite of how I normally shoot with irons. I did manage an asterisk 1” group though. *it was a 4 shot group but the first shot nearly hit my clamp, so I adjusted the sights and shot the next 3 into an inch. I’m claiming it though. As usual, the mid range of the powder charges tested shot a little better than high or low. 2.5” down to *1” then back up to nearly 3”. The better groups in the middle could just be my shooting but that is a pattern over 3 or 4 different loads and 2 different rifles.

 

[DMW1116]

I tried this load again yesterday at 100 yards to see if seating the bullets out to 2.25” made any difference. It did not so back to the 2.200” recommended by Hornady (the maker of this bullet).

I switched back to a 12” target, the gridded paper square ones with red dots for sighting in scoped rifles. I also tried two hotter loads, but after some sound advice I seated these bullets back to 2.2”. The hotter loads continues their trend upward in group size. The repeat load put 3 of 4 shots inside a 1” square after sending the second shot about 2” left. I don’t know if it was the load (fairly likely) or I pulled that shot (very likely) or both (this).

These targets show as just a tiny bit wider than my front post. So 10” wide targets would be exactly the same as far as I could see. That makes a huge difference in being able to adjust for windage.

I’ll probably switch to these or start making my own 10” targets for testing hand loads in this rifle. I can move the sights with the rear windage and elevation drum and not have to run down range so often, which is a huge time saver. I can also map the hits on a target next to my spotting scope. Elevation wise, the sharp square bottom edge gives me a good line to hold on for adjustments. I just have to have clean cardboard or tape it up so there are no holes below the target if I’m that low, which I was to start. Sighter shots are important.

Im still considering a match style front post. The difference between this one and the narrower one from Skinner on my 30-30 is quite striking.

 

[hps1]

the sharp square bottom edge gives me a good line to hold on for adjustments.

My op-rod came apart at the weld mid way through a three day state match one year and I borrowed an M14 issued to the TSRA by DCM so I could finish the match. The M14 had a standard (wider) front sight than my NM M1 sight and I was having a hard time with it, especially at 600 yards. One of the "old timers" asked if I had ever tried a "frame hold". I did, and really liked it.

You could experiment with different sizes of square aiming points for shorter ranges to similate the "frame hold". A properly sized white square on a tan or even black background that would frame your front sight makes a very precise aiming point, especially with a little sight black on your sight. Just leave an equal amount of white showing above and on both sides of the front sight, hold tight and jerk right.....that's all there is to it.

Try it, you might like it.

Regards,
hps

 

[DMW1116]

That’s actually the plan. I used to use notebook paper for pistol targets but turned sideways it will very closely match the width of the front sight on this rifle.

if I count all shots, this load and my best load with H335 are both 3 MOA loads with this rifle. If I call a couple shots fliers, then this TAC load is a 1 MOA load, but I couldn’t have held that well without the information in this thread. Thanks everyone.

There is no way to tell if I’m pulling the shots or if the load just throws one now and then. So I’m still searching for a better load and getting more practice while doing it. I plan to try a couple different bullets and move out to 200 when I’m either satisfied or bored.

 

[garandsrus]

The post with the Hi Power targets and dimensions are what you should use to create your targets. It will give you a consistent sight picture of the front post and target out to 600yds. The black of the target will still look like a pretty small pin head, regardless of the distance.

A frame hold was mentioned. The two most common holds are probably center and 6 o’clock. Center is where you put the top of the front sight at the widest part of the target black and centered left and right. 6 o’clock is where you put the entire target black on top of the front sight, so that the circle is sitting on top of the post.

As was mentioned, you can’t hit what you can’t see with iron sights, so the aiming point needs to be big enough that you can see it. However, In a High Power match, you are still trying to get a 20 shot group in less than 4”. Black targets are probably the easiest to see. You will also want to use some “sight black” on your front sight to eliminate glare and help the sight stand out.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I went back to 100 yards and rezeroed the sights. They were quite a bit to the right, about 2 inches. This would have put them off the right edge of the target at 200, though the left most shots would have been on the target, which is what happened. Now the sights are dead on windage wise.

I’ll have to work on elevation just a bit next time. It’s about 3” high at 100 yards. I’m using a detachable carry handle sight and F marked front sight/gas block assembly. Based on all my research, one click on the elevation post on the front sight gives about 1.25” of movement at 100 yards. Based on my shooting today, the windage knob gives about an inch per click at 100 yards.

Are you sure your carbine is producing 3000fps? Sounds a bit high for a short barrel. That could cause a discrepancy between what one click in elevation should change, but actually does change.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I prefer to teach myself anything I can.

I also generally avoid anything that disarms me. My guess would be, having a loaded 1911 on my side would be frowned upon at Appleseed. Though I'm not very familiar with the program.

An appleseed shoot is a very valuable experience, and very good marksmanship training. Avoiding one because the instructors, staff and coach's don't like looking down loaded pistol barrels when you are shooting prone is not a great reason not to attend. I'm not too sure that not having a pistol, when you are armed with and shooting a service rifle, can really be considered "disarmed". !!!

 

[DMW1116]

I’m not sure. I’m basically guessing based on load data and other people shooting similar loads from similar barrels. It is a 20” barrel on a flat top upper with detachable carry handle rear sight, so that’s probably getting as much as I can get from a given load.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I guess the barrel isn't that short, not like an 18 or 16". Still, an M4 is slower than a M16, and some people base their guestimation on what a full length barrel is supposed to produced. Actual velocities can be quite a bit slower than expected.