Benefits of a bolt gun vs AR15?

[adcoch1]

I have been thinking a lot about a bench/target rifle, going back and forth between a 30-06 bolt rifle or an AR15 heavy barrel in a few different calibers, or a bolt gun in a chassis system. All can have great optics and user interfaces seem to be only limited by the budget or imagination, so I ask the question: for a target rifle, what benefits would a bolt gun in 223 have over an AR15? Or what benefits would the AR15 have over the bolt gun. I am mostly talking targets here, not really hunting scenarios. And lets limit the ranges to 600 yards max so we don't get into caliber comparisons, i really am interested in the rifle types, hence the focus on 223. What do you all think?

Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk

 

[Reloadron]

I have bolt guns in .308 Winchester and .223 Remington as well as AR rifles in both calibers. This really comes down to my personal preference and I like the bolt guns. That said you really need to start looking at barrels, triggers and other features rifle by rifle. They all shoot very well and I lean towards the bolt guns despite several AR rifles. On the bench using hand loads the bolt guns in both calibers will group slightly better. Strictly my case having several of each.

Ron

 

[MAKster]

While an AR can be very accurate, an accurate bolt action will probably cost half what an equally accurate AR will cost. Hard to beat a $400 Savage when it comes to accuracy.

 

[Jackal]

A consistently sub moa AR barrel will cost $250 ish. Instead of a bolt action, I'd build a side charging AR with a closed/sealed gas block. Effectively a straight pull bolt action rifle.

 

[Tirod]

Target implies precision shooting. However, more data is needed - is this in a paced range competition or a walk thru pop up target scenario? Benchrest shooting, prone/position, or?

A slower paced firing schedule with accuracy foremost means you have time to react to recoil and reacquire the sight picture with no hurry. A timed window of firing that hurries the shooter needs a faster self loading gun which never requires the shooter to lose sight picture while working the action.

Spend enough money and one will be more accurate than some from the other, the singular issue is developing handloads where the self loader may need the case neck to hold the bullet firmly to prevent setback. It adds a dimension of experimentation to the recipe where the slowly handloaded manual gun is more likely to feed it with less angularity or force - if not single loaded.

So, what kind of range shooting at what targets under what circumstances? Details make a difference.

 

[Holescreek]

A few weeks ago I read on this forum that Cabellas had a Savage model 12FV for $419 and Savage has a $100 rebate. I ran out and bought one the next weekend. Right out of the box it shot Austrailian Outback 69gr factory loads at .6" groups and my reloads down to .26" (5 shot groups). On it sits a Primary Arms 4-16x ($159) scope, and it was still in it's original (tupperware) plastic stock.

I have never had a semi auto rifle capable of providing that kind of accuracy, much less a box-stock one in such a low price range.

 

[adcoch1]

Jackal, you hit on my idea exactly. A straight pull AR15 "bolt gun" should be theoretically as accurate as any bolt rifle in a chassis system. This is an idea i've had for some time, i just wonder if there is any benefit to this over a conventional bolt gun or a standard semi auto ar15. I am not thinking of any specific event or competition to be shooting at, just popping holes in paper from 100 to 600 yards. And if its good for that, maybe a coyote rifle, but planning on bench or bipod rested.

Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk

 

[newbutold]

If you are interested in target shooting, buy a bolt. If you are seriously interested, be prepared to spend some money.

I enjoy semi's, but for repeatable accuracy, I use bolt actions.

 

[Shane in MT]

I've got a few of each, and prefer shooting the bolt guns most of the time.

The things I like about the bolt guns are great accuracy, good triggers, no chasing brass, easy to clean.

 

[Shane in MT]

If I was looking now, I'd look real hard at the Ruger Precision Rifle, in 6.5 Creedmoor.

 

[Jackal]

Jackal, you hit on my idea exactly. A straight pull AR15 "bolt gun" should be theoretically as accurate as any bolt rifle in a chassis system.

NFA makes a great non reciprocating left side charging upper. I have one and plan on doing the straight pull target rifle. Would be fun to punch tiny groups with a single shot AR. Larue has their barrels on sale, their 20" Stealth barrel is REALLY tempting at $250 delivered...

 

[adcoch1]

To answer a few of the other posts, I love my bolt guns, for just about any job, and at the moment all of my hunting rifles are bolt guns. I have built almost too many ar15s to remember them all, but never a dedicated target rifle. It seems that most bolt target rifles are ASTRONOMICALLY expensive, and offer the features that a good free floated ar does. Detachable mags, good bipod mount that doesn't affect the barrel, adjustable stocks etc. All of which an AR15 can have too. I know it sounds like I'm arguing FOR the AR15, but the truth is that i really can't make up my mind. I could build a savage for what an AR15 would cost easy, but which would be better in the long run...

Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk

 

[Shane in MT]

One other thing I like about the bolt gun for a precision rig is having control over when I chamber a round.

With a hot bolt gun, I can delay chambering until I'm ready to fire.

With a hot AR, your round is chambered and warming up, and can increase your velocity spread, and vertical spread.

 

[adcoch1]

One other thing I like about the bolt gun for a precision rig is having control over when I chamber a round.

With a hot bolt gun, I can delay chambering until I'm ready to fire.

With a hot AR, your round is chambered and warming up, and can increase your velocity spread, and vertical spread.

This is why i like the bolt too, and not ejecting into orbit every brass.

Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk

 

[tarosean]

Bolt gun.. for better barrel options length, thickness, etc. to match your chosen round.

 

[Delmar]

For dollar to dollar spent, a bolt rifle should be more accurate than an autoloader. Bolt guns have fewer moving parts and don't depend on gasses to cycle. Look at some of the prices on semi automatic rifles that are supposedly "target" grade. Nothing at all wrong with accurate semi automatic rifles and there is a place for them indeed, but bolt guns are generally more accurate out of the box and cost less to maintain that accuracy.

 

[Tirod]

However - the hypothesis is that if the gas is shut off and you manually cycle the action, then wouldn't the AR be equal?

There are plenty of shooters who install a "sled" and single load the AR. At that point you have a free floated rifle with extended handguard supporting a bipod with no contact with the barrel, the action only fires the round and it takes manual cycling to retract the cartridge. That allows a cooling cycle and then single loading a round with manual bolt closing.

Nothing different at that point - it then becomes a discussion of whether a striker fired bolt or hammer fired bolt is more accurate, ad infinitum.

It avoids what I was asking about - what kind of precision shooting? Again, if it's a timed course, the AR has proven itself against larger and older rifles, because it can be shot more accurately in the timed portions of Service Rifle.

There is more to precision than the barrel, there is also the shooter's ability and making more shots in less time tests that ability. The gun is usually enhanced to help it, not hinder it, therefore we need to know what kind of target shooting is happening. It's going to be a regurgitation of popular opinion until then.

What is the course of fire?

 

[Delmar]

Knowing what the OP is after is certainly germane to what we are talking about. As to a shut off gas action, one is still depending upon spring power to chamber the round, correct? If fresh springs are periodically installed, I suppose that would make it a non issue. And shutting off the gas inpingement dumping burned powder onto the bolt and carrier would be a plus-the action wouldnt be working against fouling.

 

[taliv]

i don't believe the gas system affects accuracy because the bullet is out the barrel before the bolt unlocks. I suppose you could argue the gas itself moving through the tube would have some affect but it would be pretty consistent.

i think the difference is stiffness of action, in which we are comparing a heavy steel action to a thin aluminum one that you can flex with your finger pressure, and in the lock time of the trigger systems, where the standard AR is roughly 4x a standard rem700, though both can be improved with aftermarket pieces parts.

for most people, typical bolt guns are more comfortably shot from prone or a bench than typical ARs, so unless someone takes the time to figure out how to get a good steady position with an AR they are likely to shoot it relatively poorly because they do not hold as tight and they definitely do not manage recoil as well

 

[threoh8]

Do you prefer stick shifts or automatic transmissions?

There is something very satisfying about a well-executed bolt action rapid fire string, especially with a stripper clip reload, that the self-loaders can't provide.

Of course, the semiautomatics do let one concentrate on sights and triggers ...

I like both, but the experiences are different.

 

[jmorris]

You likely won't shoot as much and can load rounds that wouldn't fit in an AR mag and still shoot them happily.

 

[mshootnit]

I would chose something smaller than 30-06 for bench recreation if you shoot a lot.

 

[cfullgraf]

Bolt gun.. for better barrel options length, thickness, etc. to match your chosen round.

I have two AR-15's (223 Rem and 17 Remington) with a 24" heavy barrels and one with a 26" heavy barrel (204 Ruger). They can be obtained in lighter profiles if desired.

Of course, 20" and shorter are also available for the AR-15.

I really don't think barrel length is an advantage either way.

I'm not a good one to ask which is better, I like both bolt and AR style rifles.

Off the shelf bolt rifles are probably lower cost and better accuracy than off the shelf AR-15s. Special build AR-15s have excellent accuracy and probably cost less than a bolt rifle with similar accuracy capabilities.

It is probably easier for the enthusiast to build his own accurate AR-15 than a bolt rifle with similar capabilities.

 

[adcoch1]

Do you prefer stick shifts or automatic transmissions?

There is something very satisfying about a well-executed bolt action rapid fire string, especially with a stripper clip reload, that the self-loaders can't provide.

Of course, the semiautomatics do let one concentrate on sights and triggers ...

I like both, but the experiences are different.

Haha, yeah a mad minute with a milsurp. Bolt gun is pretty awesome. Used to do that with my 1917 Winchester.
The type of shooting i am looking at is not timed shooting, just punching paper at a range. The question that seems to be coming out of this discussion for me is weather or not an AR15 action can support accuracy that a bolt gun can. Triggers can be had of equal quality, and the same stock systems can be had for an ar and a chassis system.

Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk

 

[taliv]

i don't believe the best AR triggers are as good as the best bolt gun triggers
stocks are not the same either, even when they're identical, because of the location of the reciprocating bolt carrier in the AR. basically that means the scope height is much higher, cheek weld is much higher on an AR. and the pistol grip usually sticks down lower too, though you can get ar grips on bolt chassis too.

those ergonomics make it where if you look at a typical bolt and AR on a bench, or prone, the AR will be a good bit higher, and that's assuming someone isn't running a 30 round mag in it