Berdan Primers

[giggitygiggity]

What is the difference between the berdan primers and boxer primers? Why does everyone say that berdan primed brass can't be reloaded. I have deprimed berdan brass and saw the two small primer holes in addition to the large primer hole. Why can't I simply insert a regular primer into the primer pocket and reload as if I was using regular boxer brass? Thanks.

 

[Shoney]

Berdan Primer - A primer containing no internal anvil. In the Berdan system, the anvil is an integral part of the cartridge case, formed by a conical projection rising from the floor of the primer pocket, and flanked by ( normally ) twin flash holes. Berdan cases are not convenient for reloading, as depriming requires special equipment and is time-consuming. Some claim this to be more accurate, since the twin flash holes ensure more even ignition of the powder.

Boxer Primer - Primer with a 3-legged internal anvil, permitting use of a single, central flash hole in the case head. Such cases can be conveniently deprimed by means of the decapping pin in standard reloading dies.

 

[NCsmitty]

Boxer primers have the anvil (pointed metal tent that ignites the mixture) and mixture in the primer body itself. Berdan brass has the anvil built into it and the primer is the cup and mixture only.
Decapping the berdan cases normally require a special setup, and the primers themselves are harder to get from what I hear.


NCsmitty

 

[rcmodel]

Double Tap.

Please delete.

rc

 

[rcmodel]

I have deprimed berdan brass and saw the two small primer holes in addition to the large primer hole.

As Shoney noted, Berdan primed brass doesn't have a larger central flash hole due to the anvil being a part of the case itself.

You can't use Boxer primers because Berdan primers are almost always a different size.

Small rifle & pistol Boxer primers are .175" diameter.
Lg rifle & pistol Boxer Primers are .210".

Berdan primers generally come in .177", 197", 217", 250", and 254".

rc

 

[giggitygiggity]

I just got done depriming two Wolf steel .223 cases that had three flash holes. There was one in the center and then two tiny holes on the sides of the center hole. The primer poped out just like a case with only one flash hole. Can these cases be primed and reloaded just as other cases with only one hole? Where does one get berdan primers? Thanks.

 

[rcmodel]

I can't say what you have but if it has a center flash hole it isn't a BErdan primer.

Look and the old primers and see if they have an anvil or not.

If not, they are Berdan.
If they do, they are Boxer.

Again, Boxer primers are not the same size as Berdan primers.

Berdan primers are almost impossible to find anymore.

rc

 

[rondog]

Steel cases, throw 'em away.

 

[iiranger]

You can... but...

Col. Berdan, USA, worked out the system and it got adopted in Europe. Col. Boxer, Brit I believe, worked out his system and it got adopted in USA. Go figure.

You can reload Berdan BUT it is no fun. RCBS used to stock a Berdan de priming tool. You had to hook the rim, force a punch into the primer cap and pry it out not unlike opening a can with the old "church key". The other option was to fill the case with water and use a tight fitting punch to force the cap out with hydraulic pressure. (Goggles and swim trunks were advised.)

THEN you had to find correct size primers. RWS was usually available at some extra cost and difficulty. But if you had some African blaster and no other way to get ammo... Or you could try to force an explosive primer slightly oversize into the hole... [Please wear safety glasses, good ones...]

With the ready availability of ammo in USA, mostly boxer except surplus, WHY! I have done it for my edification. Now if I want to go shoot, boxer every time thank you and saved carefully for reloading. Your bucks, your call. Luck.

 

[oneounceload]

I'm wondering if these folks are making that third center flash hole with their depriming pin? Berdan primed brass only has two small off-center flash holes

 

[Jon_Snow]

It's possible that some foolish person tried to convert the berdan cases into boxer cases by drilling a center flash hole and reaming it to the correct ID. But as rondog said, steel cases=trash, so this is a moot point.

 

[rcmodel]

Well, he says they are Wolf steel cases with two off-center small holes, and one larger central hole.

I doubt he punched a third hole in a steel case with a primer pin.

Sounds like something Wolf might have done to convert steel Berdan cases to Boxer primers at the factory.

However, whatever they are, they are still steel cases and not worth fooling with for reloading.

rc

 

[R.W.Dale]

There's a thread over on ar15.com right now where a feller is punching out a new center flashole on steel x39 cases with his FL die resizing them to 6.5g and fireforming, IIRC he's gotten up to 5 firings before the neck splits. Given the impossibility of getting even common brass cases nowadays I can understand folks taking these extreme measures

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=121&t=448219

 

[rcmodel]

That's quite the feat!
I just ain't sure I believe you can punch a new hole in a steel case with a reloading die primer pin.

A Berdan brass case in the mix usually results in a broken or bent primer punch pin.

Could be wrong though.
Never been dumb enough to try it on purpose.

rc

 

[R.W.Dale]

Never been dumb enough to try it on purpose.

What is with you people nowadays? I swear anyone who doesn't do things exactly like you guys is now dumb, ignorant, a noob, mall ninja or a fudd and it's usually some 10K+ post member saying it. Get over yourselves or get the heck away from the computer and go outside

A Berdan brass case in the mix usually results in a broken or bent primer punch pin.

So you've tried it and know from experience then?

 

[rcmodel]

Yes I have done it, but only by accident when a Berdan case got mixed in with regular brass and I didn't catch it.

In every instance, it bent or broke a pin.

rc

 

[giggitygiggity]

I don't think the decapping pin punched a third big hole. I had to apply the same pressure to deprime the 3-hole cases as the regular boxer primed casings.

 

[ants]

Be wary of that thread (linked above). I don't believe it to be a healthy experiment unless you have equipment to sacrifice.

I don't blame the old guys for advising a little good sense. I experiment a lot myself, but I don't advocate it on a published forum.

After all, there is a reason those old guys lived to make 10,000 posts. Ask rc model how long he has had that same single stage press. Longevity doesn't arise from resizing steel cases.

anthony

 

[Shoney]

krochus
If our beloved president can say the police acted stupidly and not appologize for it, do you suppose he has set insulting others intelegence as the politically correct thing to do?

 

[rcmodel]

Just for the record, I wasn't insulting anyone.

I already said I have done it by accident and broken pins.
And I, myself, and I, am not dumb enough to do it again on purpose because I already learned the hard way it breaks & bends pins.

Thats all I said, or meant to say.

rc

 

[giggitygiggity]

Please, let's stay focused.

 

[Sunray]

"...steel .223 cases..." Steel cases, .223 or otherwise, are not reloadable. Despite the numerous attempts. Steel is not elastic like brass and won't resize properly and they may damage your dies. Pitch the steel and buy brass.

 

[fatelk]

All of the steel Wolf .223 cases I've seen have been Boxer primed. Are you sure there are off-center holes that go through?

Reloading steel cases has been covered here many times, beaten to death really.

Yes, boxer primed steel cases are most definitely reloadable. Clean and lubed properly, they shouldn't damage your dies or anything else. I've loaded lots of them, from WWII and Korean era surplus USGI .45's to Wolf .45 and .223's. I don't want to get into an argument over it, just saying that I have done it so it can be done. I'm really not advocating the practice or saying it's totally safe (though I think they're fine for practice loads).

That said, I don't mess with them any more because they're just not worth the hassle. Steel can rust, it splits easier than brass, harder to trim, etc.; whole different metal with different properties and a different set of rules.

Pitch the steel and buy brass

I agree

 

[evan price]

Ok, for the umpteenth time:

Berdan brass CAN be reloaded -providing you have a set of Berdan primer removal tools (they can't be just done on a press like Boxer) and you have Berdan primers of the correct size. Nobody in the US makes Berdan primers, and AFAIK, nobody imports Berdan primers anymore, either.

To complicate it further, for Boxer we have basically two diameters, large and small. Berdan primers have more than two diameters, and the same type of ammo (let's say, 8mm) may use any one of the sizes, depending on who made the brass. Some of them are not commercially available, anywhere.

There are folks who have resized Berdan primer pockets, drilled out the central anvil, and made Boxer primers fit. For the work involved, it's not worth it for common cases like 8mm or .308. Maybe if you had some 5.96x61.3 Scottish Boomzer or something that you can't GET brass for other than Berdan, it makes sense. Or you had a lot of free brass, access to tools, and lots of free time. It's your life, spend your time how you see fit. But for the casual reloader, converting Berdan to Boxer sounds like "easy peasy" but really isn't.

Steel cases CAN be reloaded, Boxer quite easily, Berdan just makes it that much more difficult and un-rewarding.

The problem with steel is multipart- First, steel's ductility is different than brass. It reacts to changes in shape in different ways. It gets brittle quicker and work hardens.

Also steel will oxidize quickly if not protected from oxygen by a coating of some sort- this could be oil, it could be paint or lacquer, it could be a barrier metal (zinc galvanizing, nickle plating) or it could be a plastic coating. Either way, if the coating is damaged, air and moisture will attack the steel. You don't get tarnish like with brass, you get clumpy, flaky rust formation. This jams the gun and damages the casing. If the steel case is stretched (such as firing pressure) the coating will not stretch the same and will micro-crack, flake, or fall off. Also the mechanical movement of the case from the magazine to the chamber and out the ejection port, then running it through dies, will scrape or scratch the coating, leading to more rust. Steel is also harder to form than brass- so more work by the dies and press.

Steel cases can be reloaded. But they are not intended to be reloaded- like the Blazer aluminum cases. Many now use a Boxer primer and could be reloaded. Aluminum handles pressure stresses even worse than steel or brass, however (any one remember Aloha Air Flight 243, the world's first convertible jet airliner?) and is very much not recommended t oreload. IN a world where good Boxer brass is available, IMHO, for any common caliber, the berdan and steel and aluminum is not worth messing with.

But hey, it's your time and your gun, do what you want. I don't mean that in a flippant or cranky way- if you want to, cool, have fun. Maybe you will come up with something that will make it easy to reload that "junk" brass and make us all better off. Necessity is the mother of invention.