Berger 210 VLD vs. Sierra 220gr Matchking

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Trent

Trent

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For some reason, my 300 win mag REALLY doesn't like Berger VLD bullets. I was getting very inconsistent vertical spreads today when shooting groups.

Anyone else have this problem with Berger VLD?

(All groups 5 shot)

Berger 210 VLD H4831SC OAL 3.542" (just off lands)

weight/Group Size/Vertical Spread/Horizontal Spread
66.0 1.700 1.673 0.621 < worst group
66.0 1.281 1.271 0.565
67.0 1.338 0.760 1.330
67.0 1.694 1.665 0.915
68.0 1.072 1.085 0.702
68.0 1.444 1.449 0.235
69.0 1.327 1.316 0.545
avg 1.408 1.317 0.702

Sierra 220 Matchking H4831SC OAL 3.448 (just off lands)
65.8 0.869 0.785 0.470
66.8 1.350 0.888 1.285
67.8 0.882 0.670 0.767
68.8 1.050 1.010 1.045
69.8 0.795 0.703 0.409 < best group
Avg 0.989 0.811 0.795

Sierra 220 Matchking H4350 OAL 3.448 (just off lands)
61.0 0.997 0.719 0.997
62.0 1.217 1.218 0.251
63.0 1.471 1.480 0.523
64.0 1.082 0.882 0.918
65.0 0.944 0.963 0.538
avg 1.142 1.052 0.645
 
Berger 210 - note the flyers hitting way low.

FQVoJldl.jpg

Top 3 targets Berger 210, bottom two Sierra MK - still low flyers on the Bergers.. (made scope adj between groups 4 & 5 to bring them on target again)

LvRRf0El.jpg

Sierra 220 - no flyers

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Sierra 220 - no flyers

3N82V3Ql.jpg
 
(Other notes)

All brass neck turned, seating tension set at .0015", used Redding competition seating die, all rounds fed singly, no called flyers.

So before you say it, this is NOT a seating tension issue. :)

It was windy (and rainy and cold) today but the wind was steady (for a change) at 15mph.
 
try ten and twenty thousandths shorter. i remember reading somewhere that berger bullets like to be off the lands.

couldn't hurt.

murf
 
Thanks or the info. I'm going to take a closer look at the bullets (if I have any left; I think I saved 5 in the box).

This just feels like a bad lot of bullets. I trust my aim; look at my MOA on my windage, avg. about 3/4 MOA over the course of 90 shots, and this was with a 15-20mph cross wind. There's no way I was pulling shots. :)

I shot the first 50 of these back in January, with the same issue on the first 50 shots; vertical stringing. I was seating them deep; ogive started .002" from the case mouth (those are long bullets!). This time I retested with them closer to the lands today; .001" off of them.

Since it was raining I didn't have my chrono out, but for 7/40 (17.5%) to land well outside of the group that was forming, is screaming that some were shooting at a lower velocity; a MUCH lower velocity - a couple hundred FPS slower.

My gut is telling me that I have a bad batch of bullets, either the diameter isn't consistent or they are varying on weight. It isn't the powder, as the same lot of powder didn't do this with the SMK's. Also same lot of primers between the two, although now I've got to switch those, as I'm out of WLRM, and could only find Remington's equivalent.

I'm kicking myself in the butt for not weighing them; with new bullets I've never shot before, I should have.

If I have any left, I'm going to mic the diameter and weigh them.. it's almost like some of these were heavier, or a tighter fit to the bore. I could also load them up again with the same settings as the best group I had, to get a chronograph read on a dry day. (Usually I don't need the chrono for this stuff, since I can see the effects on target, but these ... bother me somehow).

I could try messing with OAL, I suppose, to see if I could find a sweet spot where they give consistent velocity, but ... I'm hesitant now to spend another $50 on a box, just to see them do the same thing, and not at all confident that an OAL adjustment could make THAT big of a difference, considering I've tested both ends of the spectrum. SMK's just don't do this.
 
I like to keep the pressure ring below the neck shoulder junction (243 win). Some pressure rings can be as much as .0008" larger than bullet diameter. Using bushing dies, it may make a difference. Yes, the price of Berger$ have gone up. Glad i stocked up years ago.
 
Well crap looks like I won't be able to repeat the experiment... can't find the bullets in stock anywhere. :(

Anyway, seems I should have done my homework and research more thoroughly before just "dropping some in to my cart to try out". Although I'm glad I was able to form an objective opinion without coloring my view.. it appears 210 gr VLD's can be temperamental little buggers! One post I just read on a different forum recommended working up the OAL in .01" increments.. which is the reverse of what I usually do (find a powder charge that groups well, THEN play with OAL).

There's a .192" overall length difference in the first round of testing and the second round of testing, from ogive .002 off of the case mouth, to ogive .001" off of the lands. To form an opinion of where the "sweet spot" (if there is one) might be on these bullets, I'd need to shoot a full box of 100 bullets.... (assuming the .01" increment advice is right). With the frequency only being 17.5% of low-flyers, 3 shot groups won't cut it to know definitively, 5 shot doesn't even do so reliably. So that's at least $50 in bullets (plus powder / etc), all the loading, and a full day of time, to find something that might not even exist.

With SMK's shooting sub MOA I'll probably just skip it. There was some intriguing data on the VLD's, particularly with their ballistic coefficient, but the Sierra's are already pretty damn consistent.
 
Of course the are pricy Trent, they have the word tactical on them which means they have to be really good.......right? Just like zombie bullets :D
 
LOL yeah no kidding!!!!

OK I'm trying to unravel the mystery. I have *9* bullets left from that box.

4 of them mic'd at .30725, 4 of them mic'd at .30750, and one of them mic'd at .30800. Each bullet was sampled 4 times with quarter rotations and they were consistently round.

So there IS a difference in the diameter of these bullets.

I don't know if it's ENOUGH to cause what I was seeing, but my gut feeling is... I got a bad batch. It's unfortunate, because if you discard those low fliers I had some REALLY tight groups (most sub .5 MOA with 3 or 4 shots, if you exclude the obvious low ones).

I don't know if I want to spend another $50 on a "crap shoot" (pun intended!)
 
Also, I may have mentioned it at some point, but I was shooting very light neck tension on those too (.3065" ID) - so the smaller diameter ones wouldn't have had the same "grip" as the larger diameter ones.
 
Double check the zero on your calipers because while I also have had only lackluster results with VLDs they are remarkably consistent in dimensions and weight. That is the only 140gr that my 6.5x55 does not like, no idea why.
 
I maybe got a bad batch(lot),Berger Match Hunting 185 VLD, had bullet length variance of .0150 and this was just at tip won't even get into ogive variance needless to say I'm not satisfied with their performance past about 500 yds.stringing and flyer's, I'll use the rest for plinking and jackrabbit kind of expensive to shoot up but in magazine when you have to seat .0150 deeper or sort, trim tip whats up with that,this defect is visual,and measured on 3 calipers,all high grade,Mauser Etc,micrometers,and such. SMK Noz btbt and even with Hornady fmjbt's I shoot 1/2 to 3/4 MOA with Three different rifles at 500 to 600 yd's but the Berger's I have I'm only getting down to 1.5 MOA,and yes before someone goes though the reloading process for me,I have worked up loads in increments ,used 150 of the buggers in thre rifles in the process I think that should have been enough usually is for me.Have been reloading for 40 years or so for 10 Calibers ,and I'm a machinist so just saying the Bergers I've got are VLD Vary Lousy Dimensions.LOL I've seen where others have posted on length variations but nothing like this lot. but seriously maybe I did just get a bad Batch (LOT) their almost gone now but they don't work for me just my opinion not saying they won't work for anyone else .so I'm giving up on them just my 2 cents.
 
Trent,
Which Berger VLD bullets were you using? Were they hunting bullets? If so it's not really a fair test to match up a hunting bullet with a Sierra Match bullet. The MatchKings are well known for their accuracy and will beat most other bullets.

Note, if you were shooting hunting bullets those groups weren't all that bad IMO. If you were shooting the VLD Match bullets, the Sierra bullets clearly outperformed the Berger bullets. I'm a fan of both Sierra and Hornady Match bullets. Nosler bullets aren't far behind, if at all. (but pricy)

You already like the 220gr MatchKings and the 210gr MatchKings are also good. You might want to give the Hornady 208gr HPBT Match bullets a try next.
 
Know Last post wasn't directed to me but sorry didn't specify but I used both but misstated Game king what I meant,Just a lot of variance to me just stating I probably got a bad lot their berger Match Hunting 185's but think I'll go with 170's maybe Noz Partitions, for hunting Shoot the 185's in two 308 and one 30-06 just don't seem to be as accurate at long range in my .308 rifles might try a few from a friend in .257 .Thanks and regards.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
Trent,
Which Berger VLD bullets were you using? Were they hunting bullets? If so it's not really a fair test to match up a hunting bullet with a Sierra Match bullet. The MatchKings are well known for their accuracy and will beat most other bullets.

Note, if you were shooting hunting bullets those groups weren't all that bad IMO. If you were shooting the VLD Match bullets, the Sierra bullets clearly outperformed the Berger bullets. I'm a fan of both Sierra and Hornady Match bullets. Nosler bullets aren't far behind, if at all. (but pricy)

You already like the 220gr MatchKings and the 210gr MatchKings are also good. You might want to give the Hornady 208gr HPBT Match bullets a try next.
Click to expand...

These were the target ones. I also have a box of the hunting ones to try out, but haven't yet. Sort of got off-track on this rifle and started working on another one this summer (Steyer SSG 69). Got a mountain of different types of mid-weight 308's I'm working through on it.

Will revisit the 300 win mag development this winter. It's somewhat uncomfortable to shoot midsummer. Much prefer having a heavy winter coat between me and that stock. :)

PS - I've been having REAL good results with Nosler this year (won a rifle match with them this month). And, I've got a few batches of Lapua projectiles that have given real good results testing. All in the 168-180 gr weight range for 308 Win. Might try the 180's in the 300 win mag later this year, see how they do.

Lots of combinations to try, I also have 6 more types of power to test with each projectile, going to do 4 or 5 steps on each powder, each bullet weight combination. (The rifle has been preferring extreme low end and extreme high end on powder so far with 220's.)
 
Berger 175 Hunting VLD's from my 30-06...easily the most accurate bullet I've found for that rifle...I like Nosler, but Bergers are more accurate...though not really enough to matter for hunting.

photobucket-3154-1349794648260.jpg

The 3 of pieces of tape are covering a group of cheap factory Winchester ammo...same rifle.


Nosler 168 Ballistic Tips...

photobucket-8378-1349796767708.jpg
 
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