Berretta's new Open Top revolver. Any good?

[Raguleader]

BTW .45 Schofield ammunition is shorter then the .45 Colt (Long Colt) but could be fired in Colt Army Revolvers. For a while in the 1880s UMC & other cartridge manufacturers made .45 Schofield (short) and .45 Colt (long) and that is where we get the phase .45 Long Colt.

kjeff50cal

<Johnny Carson> I did not know that. </Johnny Carson>

I had always assumed they were called .45 Long Colts in order to differentiate them from .45 ACP. Is the Long Colt a longer round than the ACP? I've never seen one in person.

 

[Stainz]

Another improvement of the .45 Schofield round vs the .45 Colt - the newer and shorter round has a larger rim diameter. this permits more sure ejection. It also prevents the rounds from fitting through the gate on my Puma M1892 levergun, so it won't feed them. I had loaded a batch, hoping to increase it's 12 round capacity (Why?). They are neat cases, of course, and fit my Ruger SA's & Redhawk, as well as my S&W 625MG, perfectly.

Starline also makes .44 Russian cases, the original mass produced metallic centerfire revolver round based on the lower production .44 American, and the parent of the nearly century-old .44 S&W Special. While some will tell you that it's 246gr LRN bullet over 24gr fff was slightly anemic in comparison to the .45 Colt, one must recall that trauma centers weren't available, making most body shots mortal wounds. The bad guys loved the S&W #3 in .44 Russian, it could be shot, reloaded, re-shot repeatedly in the time a Colt SAA took to be reloaded. Also, it was very accurate, even the likes of Annie Oakley shooting it in target work. I bought and loaded hundreds of such cases anticipating a Navy Arms .44 Russian clone purchase. Years later, my pusher still has that revolver in his case, dutifully raising it's price several times, of course. Those .44 Russians have been reloaded many times now, having been launched by my .44 Special and .44 Magnum chambered revolvers. Interesting how a 240gr LRNFP over 3.5gr Titegroup in .44 Russian cases makes a whopping 692 fps from my 3" 696... a real 'poof' load, although it makes 'major' power factor for you IPSC, etc, shooters. I eventually bought a new 4.6" SBH .44 Magnum just to fit it with a bird's head grip for .44 Russian use - lots of fun, but not that break-top. I still find myself drawn to that case containing that .44 Russian clone every time I visit my pusher's lare...

Stainz

 

[unspellable]

45 caliber cartrdiges

A little clarification on the family tree is in order here.

First came the 45 Colt. There are some who say it was inspired by a British revovler cartridge, the 476 Enfield.

Second came the 45 Smith & Wesson, nicknamed the 45 Schofield. This was shorter to for the S&W cylinder and had a wider rim for the extractor.

Third came the 45 Government, later to appear on the commercial market as the 45 Short Colt. This had the 45 S&W case length with the 45 Colt rim so that it could be used in both revovlers. The 45 S&W cold be loaded in only every other cylinder on the Colt due to the wider rim. After the 45 Short Colt appeared on the comemrcial market people began calling the 45 Colt the 45 Long Colt to distinguish it. 45 Long Colt was never an official designation. The 45 S&W is NOT properly called the 45 Short Colt.

Fourth, in 1909 the 1909 Colt 45 Appeared, chambered in the Colt New Service Model 1909. This had a case about 0.010 inch longer than the 45 Colt and the wide rim of the 45 S&W. It was adopted by the US Military in 1909 and is remarkable for its obsucirty after having been the US military first line issue. The 1909 New Service was intended to use the 45 Colt as a secondary backup cartridge but will not shoot to point of aim with it. At the time of its adoption, the US militray had already decided on a 45 self loader and the 1909 New Service was adopted as a stop gap until such time as a self loader was decided on. The 1909 was inspired by the lack luster perfromance of the 38 Colt in the Philippine insurrection, but it's a dirty little secret that neither it nor the 30-40 Krag with hard ball were very good stoppers either. Non-expanding bullets just don't make good stoppers.

Fifth, the 45 ACP, which in its original conception was intended to duplicate the bullet weight and velocity of the 45 Government.

All the 45 Smith & Wesson brass I see today is headstamped 45 Schofield and has a narrower rim than the original 45 S&W.

At one time, Starline ran off a batch of 45 Colt brass with a wide rim for double action revolvers. I wish I could get some of this but it is no longer available.

 

[Father Knows Best]

All the 45 Smith & Wesson brass I see today is headstamped 45 Schofield and has a narrower rim than the original 45 S&W.

It may be narrower than the original spec for .45 S&W, but it is still larger than .45 Colt brass. I know because I have a lot of both (mostly Starline), and the rims on the .45 S&W brass are noticeably larger. I can measure them for you, if you'd like.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Another improvement of the .45 Schofield round vs the .45 Colt - the newer and shorter round has a larger rim diameter. this permits more sure ejection. It also prevents the rounds from fitting through the gate on my Puma M1892 levergun, so it won't feed them.

You could solve that problem by making your own cases of .45 Schofield length and .45 Colt rim diameter. You either cut down .45 Colt cases, or turn down the rims on .45 S&W cases (the former usually being easier). I know guys who've done exactly that for cowboy shooting.

Starline also makes .44 Russian cases, the original mass produced metallic centerfire revolver round based on the lower production .44 American, and the parent of the nearly century-old .44 S&W Special. [SNIP] Also, it was very accurate, even the likes of Annie Oakley shooting it in target work. I bought and loaded hundreds of such cases anticipating a Navy Arms .44 Russian clone purchase. Years later, my pusher still has that revolver in his case, dutifully raising it's price several times, of course. Those .44 Russians have been reloaded many times now, having been launched by my .44 Special and .44 Magnum chambered revolvers.

I love the .44 Russian. I bought a pair of .357 cylinders for my 44-40 Navy Arms "1875 Army" revolvers (replicas of the Remington model 1875), and had them fitted to the guns and rechambered in .44 Special specifically so I could shoot .44 Russian cartridges out of them. They are much easier to load than the .44-40, and wonderfully accurate, especially with a case of Goex black powder under a soft cast 205 grain bullet.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

<Johnny Carson> I did not know that. </Johnny Carson>

I had always assumed they were called .45 Long Colts in order to differentiate them from .45 ACP. Is the Long Colt a longer round than the ACP? I've never seen one in person.

The modern .45 Colt is 1.285" long. The .45 ACP is 0.898" long. The terms "Short Colt" and "Long Colt" were in use long before the .45 ACP was developed.

As you can probably figure out by now, there were a whole slew of .45 revolver cartridges in the late 1900s and early 20th century, including the .455 Webley, the .450 Colt, the .476 (which is a .45 with a heeled bullet) and so on. The only survivor is the .45 Colt (and the .45 ACP, but it's not a revolver cartridge.) Now and then some older cartridges are made up -- the .45 S&W and the .45 Auto Rim are good examples of that.

 

[Stainz]

The .45 ACP is not a revolver cartridge?? Arghhh! I just got through loading a thousand new Starline cases for my 625JM... it's all I have with a .45 ACP chamber (... or six, as in it's case.). Now you tell me! Of course, S&W has made .45 ACP revolvers, requiring metal 'moonclips' to hold the rimless cartridges for ejection/headspacing, since 1917. And... those .45 Auto Rims are just a tad newer, and still available loaded, like the .44 Russians, from a few specialty loaders. Starline now makes the brass, as well as Remington, I think. The nice thing about the .45 AR's is that you can load them anyway you want, within reason, as their isn't much case volume. I load a hard cast .45 Colt 255gr LSWC over 4.8gr+ of Titegroup for an interesting SAAMI spec'd .45 Colt equivalent. Neat little cartridge. Some folks push 'em over 900fps - for hunting!

I tried those .44 Russians with Goex fff once - repeat, once! I tried several from 23-26gr and a 240gr LRNFP, with a Fed Magnum LP primer. Nastified the brass, that's for sure. The upper limits would not crimp, the lower limits compressed and crimped in the groove. Neat noise, beautiful smoke, memorable smell... and my neat BHG 4.6" SS SBH was a real chore to clean. I'll continue using Goex bp in my Ruger SS Old Army... I am accustomed to cleaning it. BP will never find it's way into one of my S&W's cartridges!

Wasn't their some 'discussion' re the .45 AR essentially replacing the .45 Colt last year in AH, or one of those rags?

Stainz

 

[Crosshair]

I have a Enfield 38 S&W break-top on layaway and I can't wait to get it.

 

[Father Knows Best]

I tried those .44 Russians with Goex fff once - repeat, once! I tried several from 23-26gr and a 240gr LRNFP, with a Fed Magnum LP primer. Nastified the brass, that's for sure. The upper limits would not crimp, the lower limits compressed and crimped in the groove. Neat noise, beautiful smoke, memorable smell... and my neat BHG 4.6" SS SBH was a real chore to clean. I'll continue using Goex bp in my Ruger SS Old Army... I am accustomed to cleaning it. BP will never find it's way into one of my S&W's cartridges!

I actually find cleaning to be quicker and easier with black powder cartridges than with smokeless, as long as you use the right lubes. If you use a natural lube on both bullets and firearms, clean-up is simple and quick with plain old hot water. Just remove the cylinder and flush it and the barrel with really hot water. Run one or two dry patches to make sure all the water is out of the bore and chambers, and follow with a lightly oiled patch for a preservative. Presto, you're done! Compare that to smokeless, which takes at least a dozen passes of brushes and patches soaked in solvents and still doesn't get bore completely clean.

Don't make the mistake of using wax-lubed bullets or petroleum based lubes with black powder, however. Wax and petro products mix with the soot from the black powder to make a nasty, sticky, tar-like fouling that can be a bear to remove.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The .45 ACP is not a revolver cartridge?? Arghhh! I just got through loading a thousand new Starline cases for my 625JM... it's all I have with a .45 ACP chamber (... or six, as in it's case.). Now you tell me! Of course, S&W has made .45 ACP revolvers, requiring metal 'moonclips' to hold the rimless cartridges for ejection/headspacing, since 1917.

1917 came after 1911.

The ,45 ACP was developed beginning in 1904, specifically for a yet-to-be-developed automatic pistol. In WWI, the shortage of .45 automatic pistols made it desirable to have an alternate weapon -- which was a revolver (or actually two revolvers, the Colt New Service and the S&W Hand Ejector.) For logistical purposes it was desirable that these revolvers (both designated Model 1917) be chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge. S&W developed the half-moon clip as part of the project.

But the .45 ACP was never developed to be a revolver cartridge and to satisfactorily function in a revolver needs something like the half moon clips.

 

[Dravur]

Pair of 5" Uberti Schofields

I am a Cowboy Action Shooter who switches between a set of AWA standard sized SAAs and a Pair of 5" Uberti Schofields in .45 Colt. I practice with both, so the transition to the longer thumb reach isnt muich of a problem. I must say that I like shooting the Uberti's alot, but they do tend to rotate in the hand a bit more than the SAAs.

I have put Tru-Ivory grips on both and am having them scrimshawed soon. Once I get the grips back, ill put in a couple pics.

i can highly recommend the Ubertis, but not sure about the Berettas.

 

[Stainz]

One has to remember the scenario of WWI - horse drawn artillery and calvary still existed. Many, the British included, still preferred revolvers. Police used .32's, and the .38 S&W Special in the 'M&P' was considered a great keeper of the peace. The relatively new .44 S&W Special (1907), although offered in what may be the finest revolver of all time, the infamous triple lock hand ejector, just hadn't caught on. The Brits had developed the .455 MKII (Webley) by 9/14, with S&W retrofitting their HE's by the end of the year - and producing quite a few more over the war years: 5k of the first model 1914-15; 70k made 1915-1917. They carried 'Made in USA', S&W ID/Trademark, and "Not English Made" on them as well.

No doubt the superior ballistics of the .45 ACP made it the better choice - not to mention that supply logistics would be simpler and more efficient with one round. As S&W was an efficient revolver maker, they began producing a HE-based variant that had sufficient clearance to permit the use of .45 ACP's with or without moonclips, as well as the rimmed .45 Auto Rim cartridge in the heat treated (The .45 ACP was a 'hot' round then - and the .44 S&W Special designed cylinder's walls were getting thin.) cylinder. They produced over 163k between 9/17 and 1/19 - and continued, albeit sometimes spotty, until today.

S&W and others have produced revolvers capable of utilizing other rimless rounds meant for semi-auto's, with the 9mm, .40 S&W, and 10mm models being most common. Magnum Research's BFR, and some other low production number makers, are even chambered in .50 AE. I think it is safe to say that the S&W 1917 off spring have been the most successful.

Back to the new top break clones. My main reason not to have bought that .44 Russian Navy Arms piece was my combined memories of my Italian bp clones of the seventies and the problems others have related on other forums. The most irritating story was that of the finger rest below the trigger guard being tack-welded on the .44 Russian clones being easily 'removed'. It would be better if hammer-forged or properly welded, of course. The price is a bit high, somewhat understandable considering the low productions and all of the hands they must pass through. Still, I found that I could buy some really nice new S&W's - and reloading supplies - for that same money. My quest for the old break-top S&W .32's, once a common el-cheapo pawn shop regular, has gone unquenched... they are now 'collectible'.

Stainz

 

[Kaylee]

I don't know about Jesse James to say anything one way or t'other on that one in particular, but I do recall reading that his mother made quite a living after his death selling "his" firearms to unwary tourists and suchlike.

So I'd be a little careful of anything with her in the provenence note.

 

[Father Knows Best]

I don't know about Jesse James to say anything one way or t'other on that one in particular, but I do recall reading that his mother made quite a living after his death selling "his" firearms to unwary tourists and suchlike.

So I'd be a little careful of anything with her in the provenence note.

+1. We don't really know much about the guns used by Jesse James, other than the fact that he probably used a lot of different ones over his career as Civil War raider and later outlaw. We do know that he used a Remington type 1875 in 44-40 at one point, as there is a letter that he wrote extolling the virtues of having such a revolver that used the same ammunition as his Winchester 1873 rifle.

There are lots of reports of his mother selling off "Jesse's gun" to tourists who stopped by the homestead in the decades after his death. They probably weren't actually used by Jesse (most were probably bought by her after his death for purposes of resale), but being able to trace them to his mother increases their value at least by a little.

 

[TallPine]

I found that picture on the net somewhere that I believe was of a museum display.

Didn't Wyatt Earp (or someone?) supplement his income as a reporter for a NYC newspaper by selling off "the gun" that he used in Dodge City? Only he bought by-then outdated Colt revolvers at pawnshops, notched the grip, and repeatedly sold them as "the gun"

Sorta like some of the folks who are "buried" in several different tourist-trap places ...

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I found that picture on the net somewhere that I believe was of a museum display.

Didn't Wyatt Earp (or someone?) supplement his income as a reporter for a NYC newspaper by selling off "the gun" that he used in Dodge City? Only he bought by-then outdated Colt revolvers at pawnshops, notched the grip, and repeatedly sold them as "the gun"

Sorta like some of the folks who are "buried" in several different tourist-trap places ...

That's what I'm gonna do -- as soon as everyone leaves the cemetary, I'm gonna dig myself up and move on to the next town for another funeral.

 

[slzy]

that jesse james autograph on the history for sale site is STILL there at $4,500,000. it has been up so long,they may be ready to take offers.