Best .40 S&W Defense Ball Ammo if Hollow Points are Not Allowed?

[steak-knife]

Okay here we go, as many of you know the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA) of 2004 allows qualified law enforcement officers and qualified retired law enforcement officers to carry a concealed firearm in any jurisdiction in the United States, regardless of any state or local law to the contrary, with certain exceptions. Well there appears to be a cache to the above-noted statute that a lot of my colleagues, including myself, have had to start paying attention to, and that's the state regulations concerning hi-capacity magazines, and the use of hollow-point ammo.

A prime example is New Jersey, which does not allow the use of either, by off-duty and/or retired LEO. Just about all of us carry the same round (Speer .40 Gold Dots) in our off-duty weapons as our on-duty weapons, i.e. Glock 23 and 27s.

So the question is, If I'm visiting NJ while off-duty, and cannot load with hollow points, what is the best ball ammo in .40 cal, coming out of a Glcok 27?

 

[MD_Willington]

Are you allowed to use EFMJ rounds

http://www.theboxotruth.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=1357

 

[Seminole]

If you are limited to ball ammo, I would think that the heavier the better. Anything in 180 would be what I would carry.

 

[FiveFiveSixFan]

My brother is caught up in that mess in NJ and this is what he uses in his Model 27.

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=401

 

[steak-knife]

Thanks for the responses, especially about EFMJ rounds. This is the first I've ever heard of them, which just goes to show that although I actually do know a lot, I still don't know it all.

I'll spread the word, and double check with our "legal" guy to see if that round is okay in NJ and other restrictive states.

Any other recommendations?

 

[.cheese.]

My brother is caught up in that mess in NJ and this is what he uses in his Model 27.

That is the EFMJ people are mentioning. It is probably the best alternative to hollow-point when HP is illegal.

My guess would be that any FMJ ball ammo would perform essentially the same (assuming we're comparing the same caliber). That's just my guess though - I could be wrong. Maybe the grain weight would have some effect on changing the outcome, but I don't know.

 

[MD_Willington]

Someone on this forum has tested the EFMJ a while back...


Also consider the Hornady FTX bullets, if they are allowed, as they are not hollow, the cavity is filled with some silicon rubbery stuff.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=...p&q=Hornady FTX .40&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

 

[Auburn1992]

What about some ballistic tipped sort of round? Or would they still consider it HP?

 

[MisterMike]

I'm also LEOSA qualified as a retiree. The operative language of the statute reads:

Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified retired law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce . . . .

I'm not about to intentionally test the limits of the statute, but I think there's at least an argument to be made that the "notwithstanding any other provision" language would permit an LEOSA-qualified individual to possess and utilize ammunition/magazines that might otherwise be prohibited in a given jurisdiction.

Not only does the language arguably relieve you of the burdens of myriad state and local laws; if you look back to the legislative history of the LEOSA, the intent was to create a large body of individuals who could travel freely throughout the country and engage in self-defense and the defense of others unfettered by the intricacies of local statutes. This scheme would lie in tatters if an LEOSA carrier had to worry about magazine capacity in New York, bullet composition in New Jersey, microstamping in California, or internal child-proof locking mechanisms in Massachusetts.

Like I said, I do not intend to test the limits of the LEOSA, but it seems to me that this is at least a plausible reading of the statute. Having said that, I'd be interested in hearing thoughts to the contrary, including any specific examples in which such "violations" by LEOSA carriers have been deemed illegal.

 

[steak-knife]

The following is an excerpt from a memo drafted by the New Jersey Attorney Generals Office to all County Prosecutor's and Police Chiefs:

"...We have received a number of inquiries from police officers from other jurisdictions inquiring as to their "authority" under H.R. 218 while they travel through or remain in New Jersey while on personal business. The appropriate response is that they are ordinary citizens while visiting our state and possess no police powers. Similarly, federal law does not provide immunity to out of state officers who commit firearms related offenses within New Jersey..."

If stopped, will a police officer in NJ ask what type of ammo you are carrying? Probably not. But if you are involved in shooting, all bets are off and your fate lies with the County Prosecutor's Office / DA etc...

I certainly don't want to be the test case as well, hence I'll start packing ball ammo while on personal business in NJ just in case.

BTW, I got a feeling that those hollow points with a siilcone tip still qualify as regular hollow points.

 

[statelineblues]

I worked 18 years for an armored service company in NJ - the last 5 I carried Federal EFMJ in my weapons (S&W 5903 9mm, then switched to a 1911 .45).

Probably the best alternative to hollow points.

 

[Speedo66]

I know we have the right to carry the gun.

After that, all bets are off. If out of state, the law specifically states you are not a LEO in that state, and are held to the same restaints as any other permit holder.

If they can't carry full capacity mags and hollow points, neither can we.

And as previously stated, you don't want to be the test case.

 

[Kind of Blued]

Another question for your "legal guy": When you shoot an armed Jersey boy who is in the commission of a violent felony and your FMJ bullet goes through him and hits an innocent due to it's outdated technology, does the innocent's family more likely to sue you for not shooting a fatter criminal or New Jersey for making ignorant laws?

I might seriously look into .40 FMJ ballistic gelatin tests. I might feel more comfortable with a lighter bullet if you don't have the EFMJ option. There's no "better safe than sorry" here. It's either sorry (legally), or sorry (because you're forced to use an ineffective weapon).

 

[rhweb32]

I had a discussion with the New Jersey State Police about this issue. They say CURRENT LEO's are exempt from this law. The Capacity and ammunition type doesn't matter as long as it's approved by the officer's department and the officer is qualified with the gear.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I knew NJ didn't allow the use of HP bullets but I had no idea even the Police couldn't carry HP ammo when off duty. That sounds totally stupid IMO. It's bad enough the Legislators have no respect for abiding citizens, they should at least respect their LEO's.

BTW, I just love the law the way it's written. They call HP bullets "special penetrating bullets" which is totally incorrect. It just goes to show you how little they know about bullet design.

I think Federal got it right when they designed their EFMJ line of bullets.

 

[steak-knife]

Once again, thanks for all the responses.

Did some surfing to see what's available as far as .40 ball ammo is concerned. It appears on most of the sites that the heaviest factory loading is 180 grains in FMJ. If I'm going to be constrained to ball ammo, than I'm going the route of the heaviest loading I can find.

Anybody else know of any other factory loadings that are heavier? i.e. the .40 cal version of a flying ash tray?

 

[jbrown50]

Buffalo Bore makes a heavy (180 gr.) FMJ Flat Point that may interest you.
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=117

DoubleTap makes a 200 gr. FMJ Flat Point that may interest you too.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=153

DoubleTap also makes a 200 gr. WFN Gas Check round that won't lead your barrel due to the gas check. This is what I would carry in a .40 if I was in NJ.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=210

All three of these have flat points so they will perform similar to a a semi-wadcutter when striking the target.

Note that these are considered to be deep penetrators, especially the last two. So, be cautious of what's behind and around your assailant if you're ever forced to use them in self defense.

 

[WC145]

I'm a LEO in Maine and I usually drive through NJ a couple of times a year and I carry the same guns, ammo, and mags there that I carry at home. I carry the same ammo off duty that I carry on.

 

[Water-Man]

Since you use Speer Gold Dots, I would suggest using Speer Lawman.

 

[steak-knife]

jbrown50:

Thanks for the recommendations, and after reviewing them, I'm leaning toward the Double Tap 200 gram FMJ. Buffalo Bore states that they don't recommend their ammo for Glocks because the barrel is not fully supported, and although the Double Tap Lead offering is gas checked, in the back of my head I know that most kabooms in Glocks are from using lead bullets.

Water-Man:

Also a good suggestion with the Speer Lawman.

LEOSA has been around since 2004, I'm surprised (and not surprised at the same time) that many states have chosen to usurp an act of Congress.

 

[jbrown50]

You're right. That'll be the better choice considering the charateristics of the glock barrels.

Also, I don't know what your department's regulations are regarding duty ammo but Speer recently released a 200 gr. Gold Dot LE load that looks interesting. This would be for non-NJ carry of course:

http://le.atk.com/ballistics/speer/detail.aspx?loadNo=53883&firearm=2

I like the sectional density of the 200 gr. .40/10mm bullet. It's a more reliable penetrator through all of that heavy Winter clothing, auto glass and sheet metal/car doors.

 

[Ken Rainey]

What ammo do you train with? Most departments around here train with FMJ ammo...if yours does as well, then carry what you train with...around here, they usually train with the same weight bullet as the hollowpoint they carry...a 165 or 180 grain bullet...well, that is when they can get them! I'd not be too worried about having to use the FMJ ammo...the spot you hit with the bullet will be vastly more important than whether or not it has a hollowpoint....that said, a 180 grain FMJ would be my top choice but whatever hit point of aim would be the winner.