Best Army Rifle

[Titan6]

I did a little experiment a few years ago. I stopped cleaning my M4. I didn't clean it for more than six months and fired close to 1000 rounds through it at five seperate ranges, spread out over four months. Number of jams 3. They were induced by a sand filled magazine. The only real problem I had was that the rounds did not like to chamber. Had to give it a good whack and throw the forward assist. The thing still went into battery and shot just fine though. Once it warmed up, reloading was not a problem either.

So I don't buy that "it won't work when dirty". I've seen AKs that have seen a lot of rounds run through them and they jam up nice and neat. Especially on full auto, but plenty of times just because that is what semiautomatic weapons do from time to time. Put mud in it if you like there is more to it than that.

For accuracy, energy dump, range, flat shooting, control ability on select fire, number of rounds easily carried, that M4 is really hard to beat.

 

[jeridurine]

SIG series, best of both worlds. The AK and the AR.

 

[Firepower!]

jeridurine: I simply cannot over state this but you are VERY right in you assessment.

The only problem (here in Pakistan is) that they are damn expensive (20000$) and their magazines are hard to find and when you do they are over 1500$ each!!

 

[jeridurine]

Thank you.

I have not looked into the pricing of an US price of a Sig but they probably are pretty pricey. If I lived in Pakistan I would not be a gun collectore that is forsure. The mags are worth a gun themselves.

 

[Evil Monkey]

Some one mentioned the Daewoo.

You know what I found out a while back that was very interesting? While it had the same bolt head an AR15 has, the Daewoos bolt had a slot cut onto the side for a fixed ejector. Why did they do that? I don't know. Considering they already had the blue prints to make m16 bolts, they took the time and money to utilize a fixed ejector instead.

 

[Griff]

For grunt use? I'll take whatever works after its fallen off the tractor and my shepherds are done using it for a chew toy. From what I've seen, that'll 'prolly be an AK.

 

[TimboKhan]

I've seen AKs that have seen a lot of rounds run through them and they jam up nice and neat.

The AK is a stout design, no two ways about it, but for whatever reason it seems like it's reliability has reached near mythical proportions. I wouldn't argue that they are reliable under a wide variety of adverse conditions, and a strong case could be made that they are the most rugged of all the rifles mentioned. That being said, of course they jam. Any gun can jam up. Any gun (or perhaps more likely, any ammo) can fail you at inopportune moments. It's a great design, but it isn't invulnerable to mechanical failure.

I would also add that the average M4 is a match rifle compared to the average AK. Personally, I happen to feel that the average AK is perfectly capable of "minute of man", and some AK's are certainly capable of shooting better than that. Still, on average, the AR platform is simply more accurate.

 

[Vityaz]

I voted M14.
It may be an old design, but it works and it works well.

 

[Firepower!]

oh yeah...M14 is as good as AK!

This is like 1911 problem. Cant let go of past?

 

[gunnie]

apples VS oranges

as per "hso's" #22 posting....the original question doesn't allow for different uses the military can require. geography and terrain are also considerations too varied to fit under one umbrella. i would also agree with "hso's" observation that no time frame windows are included.

just too all encompassing of a question to allow for anything but a "my favorite" selection.

at best, EVERY firearm is a compromise that best suits the military's current engagement needs.

in way of evidence...."firepower!" prefers the HK 91/G3 over the M14, and FAL. i'd have to say he HAS some combat experience to base his opinions on. due to vague criteria of poll posting of original question, the 7.62 galil and AR10 aren't considered....

so lets narrow the options to the above only. in this SUB-GROUP only, my votes would be...

accuracy as main criteria...AR 10, and variants.
reliability...galil
longevity...HK 91/G3
robust design [handling damage resistance]...M-14
best COMPROMISE of above parameters...FAL

i have no long term experience with how these perform in a fully platform, so i won't go there. i don't see a 9-10 pound full auto 7.62x51 as viable for most military troops, anyway.

as far as the geography/terrain...."my favorite" FAL is NOT the choice for use in the sandbox, even endowed with the brit's sand cuts on the bolt carrier. it is also NOT the choice for sub zero tempratures.

as far as time frame windows being needed for an accurate end product, how about i vote for another military firearm not even considered in this poll, the 44 caliber Model 1866 Winchester lever action rifle!

in way of defending my vote, please see:

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Turkey/Plevna/ThePlevnaDelay.html

gunnie

PS- i didn't include the SIG 7.62 as i haven't even seen one before, more less shot one.

 

[Vityaz]

Firepower, as far as I'm concerned, it's not a matter of holding onto or letting go of the past. It's holding onto what works and the M14 works.
It doesn't matter how old of a design a gun is as long as it does it's job.
The 1911 still works in that regard too.

I really don't understand why people have a problem with an older design that still functions well.

 

[Andrewsky]

Firepower, the M14 and M1911 are not outdated. They're still in use in Iraq and Afghanistan by US forces. The M14 fills the niche for a 7.62x51mm rifle perfectly and the M1911 is used by high-speed low-drag operators in the military and by police in the US.

 

[strangelittleman]

I personally like the M16 series, but I'll say the Galil in either 5.56 or 7.62x51 are the ones I voted for. I have shot both versions and feel they have a great mix of reliability and accuracy....heavy? Perhaps, but that's the price one pays for a quality forged receiver and such durability.
Lastly, the M16 is also made in Iran, based on Chinese blueprints and I believe the M16 is also being made in Turkey for it's military based on Armalite's machinery, which in turn is importing the Turkish made AR24 pistols.

 

[GarandOwner]

Wow too many quotes to respond to here

Who's using the Sig?

I know the secret service uses the Sig 551

oh yeah...M14 is as good as AK!

This is like 1911 problem. Cant let go of past?

The m14 is an extremely reliable platform on par with the reliability of the AK with far better accuracy. M21's are still in use as are some M14's and the special forces use a scout version of the M14

Exactly what problem are you referring to? I cant think of a single problem that the 1911 has.....which explains its long service life (still in use) both by some parts of the military and many police forces.


Too many people let personal preference interfere with supporting evidence when it comes to their arguments. Its easy to be an armchair Rambo and say what they "think" would be a good rifle in combat without having the experience to support what would be good.

Oh and whoever posted saying that the M14 had the shortest service live than went on to say they are still in use contradicted themselves in the very same sentence

 

[TimboKhan]

Exactly what problem are you referring to? I cant think of a single problem that the 1911 has.....which explains its long service life (still in use) both by some parts of the military and many police forces.


Too many people let personal preference interfere with supporting evidence when it comes to their arguments. Its easy to be an armchair Rambo and say what they "think" would be a good rifle in combat without having the experience to support what would be good.

I will answer you on this one, and I want to say right up front that I am not trying to be combative or argumentative!

As far as 1911 problems go, we need to make sure that we are making a clear delineation between actual military issue 1911's and the modern 1911's sold in stores. Along those same lines, the Kimber pistols carried by certain Marines and some of the 1911's being carried by other SF groups do not, in my opinion, qualify for consideration in my argument because they are "new" 1911's. Frankly, I view the two as completely different guns, because in many ways, to include the guts in some cases, they really are different guns.

So, with that being said, the first thing that I would point out to you as being "wrong" with the issue 1911 is that it had horrible, horrible combat sights. You can tell me that guys shot expert and slayed many enemies with them until the cows come home, but you show me one person who honestly thinks that those dinky little sights are better than the average Novak or Heinie or whatever sights, and I will show you a crazy person.

Second, the issue 1911 can, for some people, be very uncomfortable to shoot. I have big hands, have always had big hands, and the two little slide grooves that wore into my big hands were most unpleasant. Beavertails aren't a popular accessory because they are cool.

Third, the issue 1911 had small controls. This is a debateable bad point, as some people do like the smaller controls, and I can see both sides of the argument, but the fact remains that in terms of modern handgunnery, the controls, or at least the safety, are among the first things modified. While on the subject of the safety, the issue model gives no options for the left handed shooter. (edit to add: There are a whole lot of commas in this sentence. Sorry, but it is 4:20 in the morning, lol)

Now, I am not saying the 1911 is bad, because it isn't. I own a "modern" 1911, and I enjoy it very much. What I am saying, definitively, is that the 1911 is not without it's flaws. If it was perfect, there would be no Kimber, or Les Baer, or Taurus, or Wilson or whatever making modern 1911's. The 1911 may very well be perfect for you, as the perfect pistol is often in the eyes of the beholder, but it isn't the perfect pistol for me, although I think it is a very good choice.

Armchair Rambo out.

 

[Baba Louie]

Best? What is this "Best" of which you seek?

While I've got no dog in the fight and would love to own one or more of each, I tend to think the rifleman behind the weapon, well trained, will be able to get the most out of whatever platform his gov't decrees he shall utilize. Thus it is that he is better able to judge it's strength and weakness than I. An Uncle of mine used an M14 in '65 in SEA and I heard his judgement of that platform as an 11 year old (unkind words to put it mildly). 3 years later I listened to him tell my father all about the newfangled Mattel toy rifle (talk about harsh words...) used during his 2nd tour.

It's not just the rifle, cartridge selection must also be considered. In todays world, small, fast and sexy is prevalent, being fired from a modular design, easy to maintain during downtime seems to work well enough... for some.

Alvin York made do with a bolt action in .30-06 and a dinky sighted 1911, but that was then and he was a shooter.
Audie Murphy did all right with both M-1's, big and little and IIRC used a Thompson to good effect, and again, that was then and he too was a shooter.

I think the next evolution will follow SIG's 500 series using the FAL gas system (w/ adjustable regulator) and hopefully in a 6.5-6.8 caliber so I'll throw my vote that direction, FWIW, knowing that every design is some type of evolving trade off. Also knowing that some young man in the future, who is forced to use it on some battlefield, will more than likely have a few unkind words to offer regarding the wisdom of those who chose it.

Some things never change. Like the quest for the "Best" Army rifle, I guess... eh?

 

[Silvanus]

Who's using the Sig?

Units that can afford them and are allowed to buy what THEY want. Some French Army special forces use the 551. As far as I can remember they were combat divers, which says a lot in my opinion. They need something reliable when dirty, wet, muddy, ect.

Also the German GSG9 use the SIG 551.

There are others, but I don't care to search them now.


I think the Swiss army tested the rifle by shooting 15000 rounds without cleaning and the rifle didn't jam once. That sounds a bit much, but if you look at how the rifle works, it's plausible.

 

[Firepower!]

Right...AK and M14 neck to neck!

 

[Vityaz]

M14 has near AK reliability with accuracy closer to the M16.

 

[Auburn1992]

AK47 is just utmost in reliability, and higher powered than the M4 at closer urban (iraq) range. That's why I voted for it.

 

[GarandOwner]

Right...AK and M14 neck to neck!

yep in reliability, but not accuracy

 

[Andrewsky]

I'm not going to say the M14 is AK reliable since extractor can cause the bolt to fly apart and it's extremely difficult to re-assemble the bolt.

 

[Firepower!]

Well M14 is not all that accurate that you pick it over other platforms since if accuracy is what you want try SIG and G3.

 

[Vityaz]

I'm not picking it simply because of accuracy.
I'm picking it becaue it's reliable, accurate and powerful.

 

[Pa.Bill]

The Military Channel, about a month ago, had a show on the Top 10 Military Rifles. They were ranked by time in service, accuracy, reliability, etc..
I don't remember them all but I do remember some were a real surprise.

M14 was 10 (10 being lowest )
AK-47 was #1
M- 16 #2
Enfield 303 #4
( FAL, Mauser were also listed)