best autoloading american rifle?

[rbernie]

Aren't even Rem 7400 over the $500 limit by quite a ways? If you're willing to spend that much, then why not a Browning BAR instead?

Naw - you can get a parkerized synthetic-stocked 7400 in most hunting calibers (243, 270, 30-06, etc.) for around $300. I wouldn't necessarily recommend one (I had a few disagreements with my 7400 and sold it not long after I bought it), but it is a viable option for light usage.

why not a Browning BAR instead? Better gun than the 7400, as I understand it.

Indeed - almost twice as expensive but probably twice as nice. Unfortunately, I don't think that it'll qualify as a 'Murrrican-made.

I think that an AR or a SU-16 would be a neat option to pursue. I found that I really outgrew my 22LR pretty quickly once I decided to regularly play at 100+ yards.

 

[cracked butt]

The Remingtong 7400 is not a rifle that is suitable for a rifleman. They are good for shooting a few shots in a hunting situation and that is about all. I've worked at a deer rifle sightin clinic for several years and have seen hundreds of these rifles perform- they shoot accurately for about 3 shots and then the barrel heats up, warps, and it throws shots all over the place.

Someone mentioned that a garand isn't accurate- it all defines what you call accurate. My M1 shoots 2" groups with handloads, and when it gets hot, the accuracy doesn't degrade much and the point of impact doesn't change either- its a far cry better than a remington, but not nearly as good as a good AR or bolt gun.

 

[NEtracker]

I believe the original poster indicated "good" accuracy, not sub MOA.
The Service Grade M1 Garand from the CMP will yield fine groups for a battlerifle, the price is right, and you end up with a super piece of history in your shootable collection.

(oh, and yes, one of those major issues keeping me from considering any move to CA, is that I'd have to part with my AR's)

 

[NevadaPistolero]

Well last time I checked and its been awhile...mini-14 mags are cost prohibitive....AR GI mags are $15, AK mags brand new $10....unless your a girly man (as ahnold would say) go for the bigger caliber....22s are fun but hey...get a real gun.

 

[444]

Please go to the CMP website and read what it takes to buy a rifle from them. When I first looked into it I found that I had all the qualifications already. I was a member of a club that held CMP matches, even though I didn't shoot in them, this was a requirement. And, I was an honorably discharged vet. There are all kinds of variations you can use to quailify for one. Heaven forbid you actually go out and shoot a match (which is what the CMP is all about) and learn how to shoot from some guys that really know what they are doing.

The M1 rifle will be far more accurate than you can shoot for quite awhile. When you get to the point that you can shoot better than the rifle, there are dozens, if not hundreds of gunsmiths that accurize them. You can get a 1 MOA guarentee for some of them. Yeah, this costs money, but it isn't included in the inital outlay for the rifle. I have been informally shooting rifles for years and can't outshoot any of my M1s from practical positions.

The M1 is 100% American made if you get a USGI rifle, and costs less than $500.

 

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

Not mentioned yet, but definitely built here, is the Ruger Deerfield carbine in .44 Magnum. Dunno if this one meets the criteria of ".223+" or not, but I'll just throw it in the ring fer gits 'n shiggles.

'Nuther possibility is the longtime-out-of-production Remington Model 8 or Model 81 Woodsmaster. These John-Browning-designed guns were first introduced in 1906, and were in constant production until WW-II. After the war, inventoried parts werte made into finished guns and sold, but production was not resumed as it had become too expensive to make these labor-intensive rifles.

The Remington was the first truly successful commercial autoloading rifle made, as the competing Winchester Self-Loading line was a blowback action, and therefore an evolutionary dead-end, which topped out at the .401 WSL cartridge. The Model 8/81 was a long-recoil, locked-breech action that chambered all of the Remington Rimless series, (the .25, .30, .32, and .35 Remington, all very similar in capacity and power to the .30-30.) and culminated in the emminently useful .300 Savage. These guns were not spectacularly popular, as they are somewhat ungainly in appearance, and are rather complicated when compared to the average boltgun, but they were designed by John Browning and display superb engineering. They were made during the days of gun manufacture when craftsmanship was paramount, and the excellent workmanship and fit and finish is obvious on close examination. They all have a 22" barrel, and a fixed five-shot magazine. They balance in a single hand very well for hiking around while hunting, and their surprisingly solid heft (They weigh as much as a Garand!) settled them quickly for fast shots in ther woods.

Most have been equipped with one or the other receiver peepsights by the likes of Lyman or Williams, and best of all, with a little diligent digging you can usually find one in good condition, in either .35 Remington or .300 Savage, (The two rounds still readily available from regular retail sources.} for $300 or under.

These guns are really well made. They're a steal. Making 'em today would price 'em in the thousands.

They might not have been a runaway hit, but they stayed in production forty years straight! Not many guns can make an equivalent claim. That speaks well of the viability of the design.

Production ceased due to post-war labor cost increases, which speaks well of the amount of fine workmanship involved in their crafting. Finding such high production value in guns produced today is rare and/or very costly.

The .300 Savage chambering barks right on the heels of the .308 Winchester in power. It's certainly no slouch, and it's readily available. The .35 Rem is less powerful, but it's one of the best big-bore deer-hunting cartridges available for the task.

if you've bever looked closely at one of these unusual hump-backed rifles, you should. They're findable for reltively cherap, and they'll give any other gun made a run for it's money for the title of "Best American Autoloader", and cost a bunch less to boot.

 

[rbernie]

Hand_Rifle_Guy - not to hijack the thread or anything, but have you shot a Rem Model 8? If so, how was its recoil? (I was really interested in one a while back, but the word I got at the time was that the recoil was pretty hefty for the chamberings..)

 

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

I've got two. One in .300, and one in .35.

Now, on the one hand, I didn't find the recoil of either gun to be at all prohibitive. A bit odd, perhaps. Downright confusingly un-natural-feeling, actually, if you can seperate out the various bits of the cycle:

The action spreads the recoil impulse out over a relatively long time period, and at the end of the recoil stroke after cocking the hammer, the barrel-bolt unit gets caught and has it's motion stopped by a SUBSTANTIAL buffer spring, whereupon the barrel unlocks from the bolt and returns forward, extracting and ejecting the case before finally tripping the release on the bolt which is driven forward, stripping the next round out of the mag, chambering it and then locking the bolthead to the end of the barrel. The barrel-return/recoil spring would do credit to a garage door, and when the barrel stops it's forward motion against the inside of the barrel shroud, you get a bit of forward recoil impulse.

All-in-all, quite a complex bunch of activity, involving a couple of substantial masses moving back and forth at different times between three different heavy springs, all in a fraction of a second. "Frenetic" comes to mind.

But like I said, the primary impulse is spread out from here to Timbuktu, and handed to all these different partiscipants. To ME, it seems to be totally reasonable. Nicer than the belt I get from a standing-breech gun firing a comparable cartridge, I think.

But that's just MY impression. I'm a well-known recoil abuser, and my standards are to be viewed with suspicion. Witness the username, and know that I spent way too much money custom-ordering a derringer chambered in 7.62 x 39 that is known as The Monster, and I didn't name it.

Therefore, on the other hand, there are a few well-experienced shooters on this board who have purchased Remington Model 8's identical to mine, who report the recoil of the M-8 to being comparable to being slugged by a bus full of fat kids on their way to Camp Stomache-Staples for a little intensive attention. (My words.)

I exagerrate a little, but the report stands. Other reputable folks (More than one, mind you.) have reported that they are surprised at the strength of the recoil of these guns, even in the context of their not insubstantial weight.

So while I'll still say it ain't all that bad, I'd be inclined to think that H_R_G is a friggin' loon just like he says he is, and his standards are from some alternate reality where getting your clavicle chiropractically re-adjusted by a steel buttplate is somehow equal to the delicate touch of a falling snowflake, which is substantialy incorrect.

That aside, it's a stout shove that won't bust you in the chops or give you a scope cut, but it definitely is no love tap. Brace for it, so it doesn't surprise you.

 

[patentmike]

I've been thinking along these lines myself. The Browning BAR I looked at recently said "made in Japan". I am leaning toward going the CMP route. Is there any reason to prefer the H&R over the Springfield?

 

[GunGoBoom]

Ooooh, I like that idea of the Rem model 8/81, esp. in 300 Savage, or the Garand. But you've got to have some patience to jump through the hoops to get a garand from CMP, so that you can get one for under $500. What do those model 8s and 81s run on the used market? Oops, Brownings made in Japan....and way beyond price parameter.

 

[Marshall]

Used BAR in excellent condition!

 

[HankB]

Like a previous poster, I had occasion to work for several years at our local gun club as a range officer during deer sight-in days, and saw a LOT of Remington autos go through.

A lot of them - by a lot, I mean percentages WELL into double digits - were jammamatics. Some worked fine, so it's probably more a matter of execution rather than design. (Maybe the rifles made Monday morning and Friday afternoon were trash?) But unless I had a chance to test fire it first, I wouldn't want to take a chance on something with a 1 in 5 . . . or maybe 1 in 4 . . . chance of being a junker.

Semi-auto Brownings all seemed to work well, as did the occasional Winchester M-100 that showed up.

The AR-15s that didn't work well all seemed to be parts guns - Colt, Bushmaster, and Armalite seemed to be quality products. But then, they're over your $500 limit.

AK variants and SKSs seemed to work OK, but they're generally imports and Kali has some screwy restrictions . . . and 300 yard accuracy is "iffy."

I recently put in an order for a "Service Grade" CMP Garand. These ARE used rifles - probably rebuilt a time or three - but from what I've been reading, you'll get one that's FUNCTIONAL and isn't a reweld or something like so many gun show specials are. I'm keeping my fingers crossed I don't get a dog.

 

[Marshall]

Rem 7400 $624.00 MSRP (can be had for less)

Browning BAR $889.00 MSRP in .243 or .308 (can be had for less)

Here's an article you may be interested in. Article Best Semi Auto Hunting Rifles

 

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

Reference material and backround...

Some handy threads for the curious and interested, since we're going into detail, here. Detailed analysis, etc. Enjoy:

Remington Model 8/81, the first.

Remington Model8/81, the second

Non-military semi-autos

Weird Autoloaders

Lever vs. 7400 vs. BAR

More general autoloader comparisons

Mind you, these are just the ones that I remember starting or contributing too. Might be more info around with more diligent searching, but these offer a good start and cover a vast amount of good posts. Pics too.