Odd. I grew up hunting in FL and no one used a .223 for deer. I mainly hunted private land, and this was back in the 80s and 90s, before the tactifools got going with ARs and AKs for hunting, which you would either have to use without a mag, or a 5 round plugged mag.
Best caliber for what I am going to do?
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Odd. I grew up hunting in FL and no one used a .223 for deer. I mainly hunted private land, and this was back in the 80s and 90s, before the tactifools got going with ARs and AKs for hunting, which you would either have to use without a mag, or a 5 round plugged mag.
barnetmill
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Owner of a local hunting shop was using a .22 rimfire Mag for shooting pigs in a relative's subdivision. Depends on the size of the pig and conditions for placing an accurate shot.
Five round mags are available for most military auto guns. I own an AK and do not consider myself a Tactifool. A very good close range intermediate cartridge firing gun. I also own lever and bolt guns and love them all. I find the AK to shoot about as accurately as a Win 94, but not as well as a Marlin 336. Oh I live in florida too.
Imperial Guardsman
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Why not go with 7.62x54R? Cheap, powerful (far more than you need), and a mosin is around $100. Find a good one and you'll have a decent shooter.
I don't think I said that owning an AK or AR made one a "tactifool." I'll go check.
Nope. Didn't think so. What I did say is that certain people got going on using intermediate cartridge semi auto assault rilfes (AKs and ARs) for everything, including big game hunting.
I own a Saiga, a Colt AR, an M1A, an SKS, and a HK 91 and 93, among others. I hunt deer with a Remington 700 in 30-06.
Nope. Didn't think so. What I did say is that certain people got going on using intermediate cartridge semi auto assault rilfes (AKs and ARs) for everything, including big game hunting.
I own a Saiga, a Colt AR, an M1A, an SKS, and a HK 91 and 93, among others. I hunt deer with a Remington 700 in 30-06.
swiftak
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I'm with the 243 crowd.
ugaarguy
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The tactifools got hunting long ago. They've been hunting with these scoped bolt action things for years now. Who do they think they are? Army Snipers? Before that it was those darned lever actions. What do they need to do? Are they going to assault the deer with all those rounds in the mag tube, rapid fire at the throw of lever? All you need for hunting with these new fangled brass cartridges is a simple rolling or falling block single shot breech loader.
ugaarguy
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No such thing as a semi-auto assault rifle. An assault rifle must, by definition, be capable of burst or semi auto fire. I also love it when people whine about others using semi-auto 7.62x39 rifles as all purpose hunting arms. It's almost the same as using a lever action chambered in an intermediate cartridge, like .30 WCF, for everything - including big game hunting. I don't know, maybe the deer have genetically mutated, and the old .30-30 Winchester just isn't sufficient for clean kills on 100 to 200 pound, thin skinned, light boned, mammals anymore.
Sam1911
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This is certainly true. That is the accepted definition of "assault rifle."
(You may be thinking of "assault weapon" which is a fabrication of the anti-gun crowd back in the '80s and which means whatever the user wants it to mean.)
But why are we arguing over platform? The OP asked about WHICH CARTRIDGE.
I don't see any reason why a body cant use a semiautomatic rifle of sufficient caliber for hunting critters the likes of coyotes, hogs, or deer.
Critters don't seem to know the difference if struck in the right place.
The type of action a specific rifle is built around has little to do with it.
Magazine capacity only applies to what capacity is legal to hunt with in a given state.
My preference for hunting = the M1A/M14S, but have dumped hogs with the WASR10/63 before. Both can be had using 5rd mags.
Hogs like to travel in groups where I hunt them at least. I prefer to dump several at a time if possible, and before they run off, so prefer a semiautomatic rifle chambered in either 7.62x39mm or 7.62x51mm for this.
The same rifle works well for prairie dogs, coyotes, and whitetail/mule deer. No elk around my hunting grounds, but would hunt them with the same rifle, and would rather spend the $$ on ammunition vs a rifle for each kind of critter.
If someone else prefers a lever or bolt action, that's just dandy.
11B
Critters don't seem to know the difference if struck in the right place.
The type of action a specific rifle is built around has little to do with it.
Magazine capacity only applies to what capacity is legal to hunt with in a given state.
My preference for hunting = the M1A/M14S, but have dumped hogs with the WASR10/63 before. Both can be had using 5rd mags.
Hogs like to travel in groups where I hunt them at least. I prefer to dump several at a time if possible, and before they run off, so prefer a semiautomatic rifle chambered in either 7.62x39mm or 7.62x51mm for this.
The same rifle works well for prairie dogs, coyotes, and whitetail/mule deer. No elk around my hunting grounds, but would hunt them with the same rifle, and would rather spend the $$ on ammunition vs a rifle for each kind of critter.
If someone else prefers a lever or bolt action, that's just dandy.
11B
Abel
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I don't know why anyone would use a 243 over a 25-06. Would someone please explain the advantage that the 243 has? Thanks.
i liked the earlier post recommending the 6.5 Grendel. Good way to go if you like the AR platform. Also the .308 gives lots of rifle options but its a bit overkill for small game. You can also look at .260 Rem. I think it fits the general purposes you mentioned.
ugaarguy
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Okay, here's a dead serious reply. I've probably posted this on THR before, but a search yielded no results, so here we go.
I have an acquaintance who's retired from the local PD. His son is a currently serving US Army Ranger. Said son came home on leave from Afghanistan a couple years ago during hunting season. He hadn't fired his deer rifle in many months, but had been humping an M4 everyday, and unfortunately shooting it a fair amount too. He chose to hunt with his personal AR because he was more confident in taking an ethical kill shot with it, than a rifle he'd not touched in months. Using 55gr ballistic tip ammo he cleanly killed a large ten point buck. According to his father the shot was placed behind the shoulder to maximize penetration with the lighter projectile. According to my acquaintance the deer walked less than 30 yards, and laid down. There was a large blood trail gushing from the entry wound. There was no exit wound. The heart & lungs were described to me as liquified, looking like strawberry soup, from the ballistic tip essentially exploding in the chest cavity.
Regardless of platform, .223 Remington, with proper ammo is a perfectly adequate deer cartridge. Placing a shot into the rib cage of a deer is no harder than placing a shot into the shoulder.
Shooting pigs in the head is pretty easy with a red dot sight on a .223 rifle as well.
Since the primary uses stated by the OP are:
Regardless of platform, 5.56/.223 is more than adequate for p-dogs, and coyotes. It's one of the least expensive centerfire rifle rounds to shoot with casually. As stated above, with proper ammo selection, it's more than adequate for deer.
Here's a Hornady 75 gr. OTM load - http://www.hornady.com/store/223-Rem-75-gr-FPD/, that has energy levels exceeding the old stand by .30-30 Win 150 gr. JSP - http://www.hornady.com/store/30-30-Win-150-gr-RN/. Swift offers their Scirocco II bonded polymer tip hunting bullet in a 75 gr. .224 diameter bullet - http://www.swiftbullets.com/scirocco/rifle-bullets/224-caliber.html. Using data from a loading manual to drive that Scirocco II to the same velocities as the Hornady load shown above would make a great .223 hunting load.
barnetmill
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That is a good question and both are fine rifle rounds. Without consulting ballistics tables the 25-06 is a somewhat bigger cartridge with more powder space. I advocate the .243 since it has a good reputation for both varmint hunting, medium large game, long range, low recoil, and it is widely available at discount stores.
But here again there is nothing wrong with 25-06.
barnetmill
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One more thing about southern hunting. Many years ago the 32-20 was considered adequate for deer. I remember a few years ago I was talking to a dog hunter and he had just killed three deer with an .30 M1 Carbine. With a pack of hounds it is quite easy to kill a lot of deer and the carbine is likely enough. Strange how it is that people with no knowledge of proper ballistics can take inferior loadings and kill a lot of game. Perhaps there is more to hunting than just high muzzle energy.
ugaarguy
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Same reason folks use .308 over 30-06, and 7mm-08 over 270 & 280. The .308 based cartridges are sized for a shorter action.
Of the big three .308 based cartridges (.308, 7mm-08, and .243), .243 is the one that's more available than its 30-06 based counterpart (25-06). .270 Win is more available than 7mm-08 though, and of course .308 & 30-06 are about equally available.
sixgunner455
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Abel - I don't have a lot of experience with either caliber, but I am in the process of selecting and purchasing a medium caliber rifle, and both of those calibers are on my short list of possible/acceptable selections. I'll tell you why I might choose the .243 vs. the .25-06.
I am currently, and heavily, leaning toward the .243. I reload, but one of my key criteria for this rifle is easy, and common, commercial ammunition availability. (The .308 keeps popping its head up because of this issue, but I keep whacking it back down with my Whack-a-Mole bat - it's still on the list, but what I really want is a light-kicking rifle that doesn't wear me out to shoot.) I see .243 just about everywhere. I don't see .25-06 as often, and when I do, it costs more than .243. This issue has knocked the very nice .260 Remington off my list completely, at least for this rifle, even though I have been interested in it since its introduction.
I am buying this rifle to *shoot*, and I intend to shoot the heck out of it. I don't know exactly how long a hunting rifle barrel will last, but I intend to find out. I will hunt coyotes, deer, groundhogs, maybe feral hogs, and probably some pdogs at least once with this rifle. (It may sound crazy to some, but I may even stretch it one day to elk. I, myself, have only used a .30'06 on elk, but I know a number of people who use the .25-06, 6mm Remington, and .243, and are successful doing so.) I will also target shoot regularly at my club. This is where my new rifle will get most of its use, and probably where the original barrel will die. It will be used on paper and steel out past 600 yards on our long rifle range. I know that there are target and match bullets available for the .25, but there are a lot more choices available for the 6mm/.243 because there are so many 6mm cartridges used for long range match shooting. (.308 just got whacked in the head again.)
There are a lot of similar-performing cartridges out there. Every rifleman has to select his rifle based on his own priorities. I don't think that the .243 has huge advantages over the .25-06, even though I will probably buy one over the .25. What I do think is that they are both excellent cartridges that do about the same thing with bullets of similar size and weight. The .25 can push them just a little bit faster, but ... really, at the speeds they are going, I can't see that as being a huge advantage. I'm not going to be shooting at big game far enough for that to matter, and at the range or on pdogs, it will be a matter of practicing and calculating bullet drop, for which actual velocity is only one part of the equation.
I don't mind long actions, but I am currently favoring short actions because the rifles tend to be a bit shorter and more compact, and weigh a bit less - when I hunt, I hike a lot, and I would prefer to save a bit of weight if all else is equal. This, again, favors the .308-based cartridge, rather than the .30'06-based cartridge.
Some of the rifles I am looking at are not available in the .25-06 because it is not as common a chambering as some others. It's kind of a fun process, shopping for a rifle. You have to decide what's most important - the rifle, or the cartridge. Then, you start looking at either rifles that are available in your chosen chambering, or at the list of available chamberings for the rifle you are interested in.
In the end, and probably within the next couple of weeks, I'll buy a rifle. The equation will include caliber, price, features, and a few other things, and I have a short list of what I think I'm going to select my rifle from, but if someone offers me a rifle I really like at a price I can't ignore, I'll just check to make sure the caliber is one of the ones I figure is 'okay' for my purposes, and buy a new set of dies to go with whatever it is. The chambering, as long as it's one of the ones on my list, will be just fine, whatever it is.
I am currently, and heavily, leaning toward the .243. I reload, but one of my key criteria for this rifle is easy, and common, commercial ammunition availability. (The .308 keeps popping its head up because of this issue, but I keep whacking it back down with my Whack-a-Mole bat - it's still on the list, but what I really want is a light-kicking rifle that doesn't wear me out to shoot.) I see .243 just about everywhere. I don't see .25-06 as often, and when I do, it costs more than .243. This issue has knocked the very nice .260 Remington off my list completely, at least for this rifle, even though I have been interested in it since its introduction.
I am buying this rifle to *shoot*, and I intend to shoot the heck out of it. I don't know exactly how long a hunting rifle barrel will last, but I intend to find out. I will hunt coyotes, deer, groundhogs, maybe feral hogs, and probably some pdogs at least once with this rifle. (It may sound crazy to some, but I may even stretch it one day to elk. I, myself, have only used a .30'06 on elk, but I know a number of people who use the .25-06, 6mm Remington, and .243, and are successful doing so.) I will also target shoot regularly at my club. This is where my new rifle will get most of its use, and probably where the original barrel will die. It will be used on paper and steel out past 600 yards on our long rifle range. I know that there are target and match bullets available for the .25, but there are a lot more choices available for the 6mm/.243 because there are so many 6mm cartridges used for long range match shooting. (.308 just got whacked in the head again.)
There are a lot of similar-performing cartridges out there. Every rifleman has to select his rifle based on his own priorities. I don't think that the .243 has huge advantages over the .25-06, even though I will probably buy one over the .25. What I do think is that they are both excellent cartridges that do about the same thing with bullets of similar size and weight. The .25 can push them just a little bit faster, but ... really, at the speeds they are going, I can't see that as being a huge advantage. I'm not going to be shooting at big game far enough for that to matter, and at the range or on pdogs, it will be a matter of practicing and calculating bullet drop, for which actual velocity is only one part of the equation.
I don't mind long actions, but I am currently favoring short actions because the rifles tend to be a bit shorter and more compact, and weigh a bit less - when I hunt, I hike a lot, and I would prefer to save a bit of weight if all else is equal. This, again, favors the .308-based cartridge, rather than the .30'06-based cartridge.
Some of the rifles I am looking at are not available in the .25-06 because it is not as common a chambering as some others. It's kind of a fun process, shopping for a rifle. You have to decide what's most important - the rifle, or the cartridge. Then, you start looking at either rifles that are available in your chosen chambering, or at the list of available chamberings for the rifle you are interested in.
In the end, and probably within the next couple of weeks, I'll buy a rifle. The equation will include caliber, price, features, and a few other things, and I have a short list of what I think I'm going to select my rifle from, but if someone offers me a rifle I really like at a price I can't ignore, I'll just check to make sure the caliber is one of the ones I figure is 'okay' for my purposes, and buy a new set of dies to go with whatever it is. The chambering, as long as it's one of the ones on my list, will be just fine, whatever it is.
Arkansas Paul
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I vote for the .25-06.
ugaarguy
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It appears you can, but you may be limited to expanding copper solid bullets like the Barnes TSX, Hornady GMX, etc.
http://www.fgc.ca.gov/regulations/current/mammalregs.asp#353
http://www.fgc.ca.gov/regulations/current/mammalregs.asp#368
If it's only for the stated purposes, then I'd say .223, for the cheapness. Out of a good bolt action rifle it'll do everything you want it to do. .243 would be my choice if you plan on doing anything bigger with it. If you go with the .223, just take a bolt action rifle with an intermediate twist. No need to go semi auto.
Mike1234567
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I'm in no way criticizing but I'd rather not use a "compromise" cartridge for varmint to deer and hogs. IMHO, it's just not fully practical. I'd opt for .17 HMR or .22 LR (fragmenting) for varmints and switch to .308 Win for coyotes, deer, and hogs. Hollow point for coyotes and soft point for larger or hardier game. This stated, I do understand not wanting to carry 2 rifles. I would just hunt one type of critter at any given time.
I suppose if I "had to" choose only one caliber I'll echo other's recomendation for .223... hollow points or fragmenting bullets for varmints and coyotes and quality soft points for deer and hogs. And, as others stated, cheap surplus plinking ammo is available.
I suppose if I "had to" choose only one caliber I'll echo other's recomendation for .223... hollow points or fragmenting bullets for varmints and coyotes and quality soft points for deer and hogs. And, as others stated, cheap surplus plinking ammo is available.
sixgunner455
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Mike - it's very practical, because then you don't have to carry two rifles. That's the point.
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