best candidate for a SBS?

[HRnightmare]

Looking at doing an SBS. I don't want to buy one already done like a Serbu because the cost. I can get a stock 500 or 870 for about $300. So $500-550 after FFL transfer and tax stamp. I think Serbus are closer to $800+/- before transfer.

I want probably a 3 shell tube, I'll cut the barrel just about the same length as the tube.

Any other SBS candidates someone could recommend?

I understand the process. I have 4 SBR and 4 suppressors.

 

[WestKentucky]

You have the big 2 listed. Those are the ones you can buy aftermarket parts for and doll it up how you want it. I would go 870 just for a little extra weight as a 12 ga in a chopped gun will pack a pretty serious wallop.

 

[Aaron Baker]

Are you going to do the work yourself? Are you comfortable with cutting/welding, etc? Or do you want to be able to swap on a short barrel?

Those are really the important questions. If you want swappable parts, you probably need a 500 or 870. I went with an H&R Pardner Pump 12 gauge, myself. It was a little less than $200, and is a clone of the Remington 870. The only aftermarket parts that don't fit are barrels. (I'm not sure what the difference is, but there's apparently some difference.) That didn't matter, as I was chopping the barrel myself.

I chopped the barrel down to 12 inches, and shortened the mag tube so the cap is about 1/8 to 1/4" shorter than the end of the barrel. It took a little work to do that. The barrel chop is the easy part, really. After lopping off the end of the barrel, I removed the magazine tube lug (band? not sure what you can it, but the piece that is attached to the barrel and connects it to the magazine tube) from the piece of barrel that was removed, by grinding it off. Then I chopped the magazine tube down as well. However, the end of the magazine tube is threaded for the cap, so I actually cut off those threads as well, and then tack welded the threaded section back on to the end of the mag tube. Then I ran a dremel sanding wheel inside and out to smooth out the welds. At that point, I slipped the lug over the tube, screwed the cap on, and then tack welded the lug back to the barrel. (I would normally worry about welding on a barrel, but the lug is literally within 1/2" of the end of the barrel, so I don't have any strength concerns.)

Once everything was welded in place and smoothed out, I used cold blue to refinish it. Then I drilled and tapped the end of the barrel for one of those little fiber optic front beads. I also replaced the furniture with Magpul's set for the 870, adding a short rail to the front with a Magpul hand stop, since the foreend is so close to the end of the barrel. I used the FDE furniture, and dyed it with dark blue RIT dye.

Including the tax stamp, I have less than $600 into this project. (Less than $200 for the shotgun, $200 tax stamp and less than $200 for the Magpul furniture, bead sight, and miscellaneous supplies.)

I'm not going to tell you that it's the prettiest SBS in the world. But the welds on the magazine tube (for reattaching the threaded section) are covered by the barrel lug, and I cleaned up the barrel lug welds pretty good. The "worst" part is probably the cold bluing and subsequent wear on it. But it's a solid shotgun, extremely handy in this size, and you still get 4 2-3/4" shells in the tube. With some low recoil buck, it's a primary HD gun at my house. And anyway, the main reason I built it was because I needed a Form 1 project so that I could beta-test eForms and write a walk-through for my clients.

I'll post some pictures if you're interested.

Aaron

 

[Aaron Baker]

Some pictures for your consideration...







The bright sunlight really makes the finish on the barrel and magazine tube look bad. But what can I say? It's cold blue, so it ain't great. If I were really worried about it, I'd hit it with some Duracoat or something.

As you can see, if you were to go shorter than 12" on the barrel, you'd run into problems with the forearm. I guess that's why Serbu has those weird forearms.

Aaron

 

[Liquidring]

Have you considered a semi, something like a Saiga-12? Chop it to 10", throw in a 20 rnd drum and the grins and giggles are standard.

 

[Ryanxia]

Have you considered a semi, something like a Saiga-12? Chop it to 10", throw in a 20 rnd drum and the grins and giggles are standard.

This was going to be my suggestion. The other kind of neat thing to do if you're on a budget is grab a cheap single or double breakopen for $80 and chop that right down.

Also, the raptor shotgun grip is pretty neat and makes any gun look cool.

And if you want to be SUPER special, get an 8gauge or 10gauge and SBS it, I took my 10 gauge down to 18.5 barrel and with the diameter of that it's pretty scary on the business end.

 

[LocoGringo]

I was thinking Saiga also. All the handiness, none of the magazine limitations. Just gotta make sure it's done right so that it's reliable.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Double post deleted.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I just did 12.5" and left the lug where it is and saved myself a bunch of work.
The 870 is nice for an SBR since you can float an extra shell under the carrier (AKA "ghost loading").

Still haven't bottomed out on a final configuration. With a conventional stock, my angled grip for stock deployed, and cantilevered inward pistol grip for stock folded would be great but due to the movement of the Knoxx stock (which is very effective in reducing recoil) it does not work.

The infamous palm tree stump again

It's nowhere as short as a SxS SBS (I have 2 SxS SBSs that I shoot fairly often) and had no advantages over a bullpup. Sadly, I pretty much never shoot it.

Mike

 

[kdunn]

Have you considered a semi, something like a Saiga-12? Chop it to 10", throw in a 20 rnd drum and the grins and giggles are standard.

This was my thinking, but if you chop the barrel on a semi-auto shotgun for an SBS, will this lead to reliability/cycling issues? Anyone have experience here?

 

[LocoGringo]

This was my thinking, but if you chop the barrel on a semi-auto shotgun for an SBS, will this lead to reliability/cycling issues? Anyone have experience here?

As a disclaimer, I don't have the actual experience because I don't own one, but my brother has a Saiga-12 that he cut down the barrel and permanently attached a Monster brake to the end to keep it legal and because of the recoil mechanism, he had some reliability issues with lighter loads. The gas port had to be opened up a bit to make it reliable. If the barrel is modified on a Saiga-12, additional tuning may be necessary to keep it 100% reliable with multiple loads.

Keep in mind, this is Saiga-12 specific and not semi-auto shotgun in general.

 

[MasterSergeantA]

Another option might be a Browning A-5 (or better yet, one of the cheaper clones). Since it is recoil operated, you don't have to sweat the gas system issues. Worked well for Clyde Barrow for a while.

 

[ScottS]

I went with a Rem 870. Using the factory 14" barrel, I can add a one-round mag extension, and it handles like a dream.

I had the barrel engraved, rather than the receiver, and when needed, I just swap the 26" barrel back in and I'm a totally incognito Title I gun.

 

[HRnightmare]

I may cut the barrel myself, I'm not confident in messing with the mag tube.I really line the Saiga but around here can't find one for less then about $1200+/-. I won't say I haven't spent that on guns before, but on a gun I likely won't shoot that much I just don't think it will be worth it.

I am thinking of going down to 10.5" +/- barrel length.

Does anyone make replacement barrels that short? I'd rather pay then have to mess with it myself.

Thanks for all the info.

 

[Aaron Baker]

I am thinking of going down to 1.5" +/- barrel length.

I'm going to assume there's a typo in there. I don't think anyone makes barrels shorter than most shotgun shells.

It sounds like you may want a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500, since those barrels are easier to swap. I haven't done the research, but it seems like 14" is obtainable in a factory barrel.

Aaron

 

[Girodin]

Have you considered a semi, something like a Saiga-12? Chop it to 10", throw in a 20 rnd drum and the grins and giggles are standard.

SBSing a saiga 12 is a serious job if you want to run with any kind of reliability. Just whacking off some barrel is a sure way to make the thing unreliable. Going to 10" would necessitate shortening the gas system.

I'm not familiar with all gas guns but in general you are more likely to have reliability issues shortening gas guns. Something like a benelli recoil operated gun might be a better idea in general. I'd research any specific gas gun before I started chopping it.

I'd agree a lot depends on what work you can do yourself. If you are limited in abilities then the easiest will be a pump gun (870, Mossberg 500, or the Chinese clones of either are prime candidates) that you have some one cut back to the area of the mag tube and install a bead on. The issue is then are you going short enough to justify the cost/effort of the project. Unfortunately with tube fed guns you lose capacity as you go shorter. I've seen an SBS with a three round capacity it a shotgun class and the lack of capacity of the weapon was apparent. It was a cool gun but there was a distinct trade off, which may matter more or less depending on actual use.

You can typically get to around 12.5" without shortening the mag tube of a gun with a tube that holds four rounds. This assumes a barrel that is roughly flush with the mag tube. That is a pretty handy size. 14" barrels tend to be flush with a 5 round tube. You can have the tube longer than the barrel though and go a bit shorter than 12" on a 4 round tube. I plan to do a pump gun SBS (just waiting for the right donor gun) and think I will go for about a 12.5" barrel. It seems like the best set of compromises for my uses. I like to go as short as I can without compromising performance when it comes to my SBS/SBRs.

This is a 12" 870 (random picture form the web)

View attachment 723173

And a 14" for rough comparison

View attachment 723174


An A5 style SBS is very cool. I had chance to play with one once. If I found the right donor gun something like this is pretty cool.


View attachment 723175

And while it is significantly more spendy I wouldn't mind owning something like this:

Benelli M4

Or this

Benelli m1S90 with a 10" barrel. I believe you can still load shells in it!

View attachment 723176

 

[USAF_Vet]

I've looked into SBS myself. Singles, doubles and pumps seem to be the way to go. But if you do a semi, a long recoil action, like the A5 above would be the way to go. That way you're not messing with any gas ports or piston systems that may not cycle with light loads. My LGS has a Remington 48 (similar to the one I aready own) I thought about getting for an SBS. Mine is the vent rib barrel with Poly-Choke, the other is a non ribbed barrel, fixed choke. Not sure which I'd want to cut.

 

[giggitygiggity]

I'd love a 14" Remington 870P with ghost ring sights, Surefire foreend, and side saddle.

 

[MasterSergeantA]

I do have a 12" Rem 870, but it is an AOW not SBS. With a Knoxx Breacher grip it isn't so bad. I could turn it into a SBS for the minimal investment of $200 and a Form 1, but don't know if I really want to do that.

 

[jerkface11]

Magpul furniture seems popular on SBS's.

 

[wally]

I don't own one, but my brother has a Saiga-12 that he cut down the barrel and permanently attached a Monster brake to the end to keep it legal and because of the recoil mechanism, he had some reliability issues with lighter loads

Unmodified Saigas often have trouble with light loads -- that is why there are after-market gas pucks to give an extra setting or two to allow more and sometimes less gas. I couldn't shoot the cheap "Dove loads" until I got one, doing 10 round mags and 20 round drums at steel plates, I find the cheapest ammo is the best ammo for this application and the puck quickly paid for itself in ammo costs.


So if you have issues after shortening the barrel, I'd try one of these ($20-30) before "opening up" anything.

If you want a barrel shorter than the standard piston and op rod allow, I think you are asking for trouble with the Saiga. You'll like run in the problems that can plague the super short AKs -- with the short op rod it gets completely out of the tube and there is enough "slop" in the carrier that the rod can hang when the piston fails to re-enter the tube and "catches" on the edge.

 

[HRnightmare]

I'm probably going to stay away from semis. I had a Mossberg 930 and it never ever ran properly. you around 2 reliability issues one built my short barreled ARs. I know how to disassemble and reassemble and diagnose those, shotguns I cannot as well.

 

[agtman]

Another option might be a Browning A-5 (or better yet, one of the cheaper clones). Since it is recoil operated, you don't have to sweat the gas system issues. Worked well for Clyde Barrow for a while.

That was my thought as well, except I'm sure I read somewhere that Ol' Clyde's "whippet" was a 16ga, maybe a 20ga (?). As I recall, he cut the barrel right where the factory mag tube ended. Not sure what length that made it though. Old-school crime historians here might know for sure.

IMO, while the "moderately chopped" 12ga 870s & Mossy 500s (i.e., no less than 14") can be handled and controlled with practice, if you go shorter than that on barrel length, you either need to go to a semi-auto (assuming reliability) or drop down in gauge to a 16 or 20.

In an autoloader, I'd look into something like the magazine-fed VERP 12.

There is, of course, always this classic option.

Ithaca Auto-Burglar - 20ga.



But if you've got some real money to burn, here's a super-shorty Winny O/U in 20ga. Just a tad under $10K OTD.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=482782368#PIC