Best CQB-MidLength AR sight/scope?

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What would be the best or very good CQB-to-Mid Length AR sight/scope? My budget is $2000. I need one piece equipment and No Magnifier.
 
For $ 2000.00 you can get pretty much any optic you want.

For CQB out to 300 yds. on my mid-length AR I use an Aimpoint Micro T-1 in a Daniel Defense mount.

And with your budget you would still have plenty of cash left over for practice ammo;)
 
If you're looking for a straight non-magnification RDS, Aimpoint is an exceptional optic. For size and weight, the Micro T-1 is superb. The M4S is also a phenomenal optic with a larger size tube if so desired. Both work exceptionally well in LaRue QD mounts.
If you want magnification, it depends on what range you're looking to shoot out to. CQB usually necessitates no magnification and a rapid-acquisition reticle; preferably illuminated. If you need magnification, I would suggest looking into a variable magnification optic like a 1-4x, 1-5x, 1.5-5x, or 1.5-6x scope. The closer you can get to 1x on the low end, the better. If you want high-end, look into the US Optics SN-4S 1-4x, NightForce NXS 1-4x, or Vortex Razor HD 1-4x. For a little less money, the Vortex Viper PST 1-4x, SWFA SS HD 1-4x, Weaver Tactical 1-5x and Trijicon TR24 1-4x are good options.
The Elcan SpecterDR 1x/4x optic is exceptional, and it is a true 1x on the low end and the 4x is very nice to have for the long shot. It's a switch-view style system, if you're not familiar with it.
Otherwise, a US Optics SN-4 1.5-6x or Leupold Mark4 MR/T 1.5-5x would serve you well for slightly higher magnification in a DMR role. I would suggest staying with a 1-4x/1-5x scope for CQB use, though.
 
Depends on application

D100_5378_img.jpg
article | Fighting Carbine Optics extwh3.png

Now that optics have come of age on fighting rifles, one of the most compelling reasons to have a longer barrel has been removed. With iron sights such as those on the M16A2, practical accuracy depends on sight radius; it is easier to shoot accurately with more distance between the front and rear sight. Optical sights have no sight radius; barrel or weapon length is now separated from the ability to obtain a precise sight picture. This change allows a 14.5-inch M4 to have the same sighting precision as a 20-inch M16A2 or even sniper rifle.
Click to expand...
 
Adding to what SentielStrategic said, my feeling is that if you go with a 1X optic, then the closer it is to true 1X the more effective it will be, if you use a both eyes open technique. Even a slight increase beyond 1X makes the sight picture more difficult to resolve.

In my way of thinking an optic that has a low end of 1.25 or 1.5X is a waste of money.

With your budget, I'd add the Swarovski Z6i 1x6 scope to the list. It looks to be in the awesome range and in my future when I win the lottery.

For a lower cost option, also check out the Burris XTR. I use this and like it a lot, though the illumination is not daylight visible. On the other hand, I've never felt like I needed the illumination in daylight.

Also take a hard look at the LaRue detachable scope mount, I'd say it's nearly standard equipment for a fighting carbine with a scope.

http://stores.homestead.com/Larueta...+Combos&searchpath=99202879&start=31&total=99
 
HJ857 said:
Adding to what SentielStrategic said, my feeling is that if you go with a 1X optic, then the closer it is to true 1X the more effective it will be, if you use a both eyes open technique. Even a slight increase beyond 1X makes the sight picture more difficult to resolve.

In my way of thinking an optic that has a low end of 1.25 or 1.5X is a waste of money.
Click to expand...
VERY good point about the 1x. I get a lot of flack for begrudging the Leupold MR/T 1.5-5x for this reason. If you can get a "true 1x" scope, it makes such a huge difference in how you perceive your target. Most "true 1x" scopes are listed as 1x, but some are listed as 1.1x because they're not completely without any magnification. Schmidt&Bender with their 1.1-4x Short Dot is an example of this, as is Premier Reticles with their V8 1.1-8x. The exception is the Elcan SpecterDR 1x/4x.
All of the 1-4x/1-5x scopes I listed above are supposed to be "true 1x".
 
Then.... I guess Aimpoint micro-T1 is the only viable option for me....
 
CQB-to-Mid Length
Click to expand...

CQB is pretty well understood, but what do you mean by "mid"? Do you mean that you want an optic that incorporates magnification or one that does not?

I don't know if everything is available in Canada since there are export restrictions from the US on some electro-optics.
 
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I think midlength refers to the rifle, as I'm guessing it's a midlength gas system.

The Aimpoints are available in Canada. Keep in mind that they're made in Sweden.

I have the T-1 on one of my ARs, and it's a phenomenal optic with virtually no weight. You won't be disappointed.
 
I like the Trijicon ACOG. For your budget, you can pick your choice of scope/mount, but I like their standard AR picatinny mount. It is strong and stable. The QD stuff like ARMS mounts are okay, great for reflex, but not as reassuringly stable. I like the ACOG with the tritium only illuminated stadia lines, good to 600m M4 and 800m 7.62. The fiber optic model causes problems as you want it black when it is light out (some marines and soldiers, really most all I knew, put tape over the fiber optic). You will still have enough funds left over to add your choice of Docter, Trijicon, JP, ect. miniature reflex sights to mount on the ACOG for close range. I like the Trijicon, here get the fiber optics also, and if an option, battery powered too.

That brings me to reflex sights. Any of the good manufacturers of reflex sights that make one that illuminates using tritium, fiber optic, AND battery are the best way to go for a reflex sight. No worries with washout when firing from the dark on a light target (when your fiber optics can't compensate) because you can turn on the battery for those situations, while not be dependent on the battery. Best of all worlds.
 
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Sorry for the ambiguous description. I was looking for a sight/scope that are capable for CQB and 150-250 yards sighting.
 
Strykervet said:
I like the Trijicon ACOG. For your budget, you can pick your choice of scope/mount, but I like their standard AR picatinny mount. It is strong and stable. The QD stuff like ARMS mounts are okay, great for reflex, but not as reassuringly stable. I like the ACOG with the tritium only illuminated stadia lines, good to 600m M4 and 800m 7.62. The fiber optic model causes problems as you want it black when it is light out (some marines and soldiers, really most all I knew, put tape over the fiber optic). You will still have enough funds left over to add your choice of Docter, Trijicon, JP, ect. miniature reflex sights to mount on the ACOG for close range. I like the Trijicon, here get the fiber optics also, and if an option, battery powered too.

That brings me to reflex sights. Any of the good manufacturers of reflex sights that make one that illuminates using tritium, fiber optic, AND battery are the best way to go for a reflex sight. No worries with washout when firing from the dark on a light target (when your fiber optics can't compensate) because you can turn on the battery for those situations, while not be dependent on the battery. Best of all worlds.
Click to expand...
I try and push people away from this setup. I ran a TA01 ACOG with a Trijicon RDS stacked on top in a winged mount as a DM/SDM in the Army. When I first had it, I thought it was better than Biscuits and Gravy. As I used it more and more, I began to really dislike it. It was acceptable for use for me because I rarely used the RDS. I spent most of my time using the ACOG while sitting in LP/OPs out in the open, or in fortified roof bunkers high above the roof lines of Baghdad and Nasiriyah. The RDS sits up something like 4" off the bore line, which is absolutely terrible for CQB use for zeroing optic correctly. I had two angled shims in there just to get myself on target at 25m. When you consider that the ACOG is basically for 50m+, and the RDS is for 0-50m, you have to understand that your zero should be a 25m zero instead of the more preferred 50m, and there is a massive deviation in the trajectory of the round inside those ranges with that optic height. Then you also add in the issue of craning your neck, and you start having neck fatigue issues. You also lose your cheek weld, which makes it hard to maintain a proper reflexive aiming and shooting motion.
If the ACOG is your flavor, It's better to go to a BAC model, and learn to use the BAC reticle with both eyes open and eliminate the need for an RDS.
Personally, I won't use an ACOG again. There are too many better alternatives. The infinite focus induces severe eye strain, and the eye relief sucks. The ACOG is not a good CQB optic. There is a reason why the Army has the M68 CCO in addition to the ACOGs. The ACOGs go to the DM/SDM, and to the soldiers out in the mountains in Afghanistan. Soldiers operating in the cities in Iraq are given the CCOs because they're better suited to CQB, as well as intermediate distances of less than 200m.
If you get an ACOG and RDS combo, you need to get an integrated combination like the ECOS models. If you get a standard model and add the optional mount, the mount will shift and does not fit right. There have been lots of fitment issues, and Trijicon has not fixed them. This causes shift in zero, which is No Bueno.
For the money you'll drop on an ACOG and RDS, you can spend the same amount on several other available optics and get a better package. There are 1-4x scopes on the market that actually do everything the ACOG does, but better. Of comparable price is the US Optics SN-4S 1-4x, but it's a superior optic. You have multiple reticle choices, illumination options, adjustable magnification with a true 1x, a diopter ocular focus, and German glass (better FOV than the narrow FOV of the Trijicon with its Japanese glass).

The ACOG is a die-hard optic, but it's past its prime and is a poor choice for CQB use. Although, rumor is that Trijicon may be developing an ACOG with adjustable magnification...so that could be interesting.

Maybe it was just me, but I was not satisfied with the optional level of brightness adjustment on the RX30 TriPower. I applaud Trijicon for trying to solve that horrid washout issue (which is why our SWAT team is ditching their Reflex sights), but TriPower just doesn't seem to me like it gives you anything over an Aimpoint CompML2. The battery life isn't very good on the Trijicon if you use it a lot, and they don't even have an NVG compatible option.
I think Trijicon's future is with their AccuPoint scopes, and if they do put out a 1-6x with a ranging reticle. That, or an adjustable ACOG. Anything else has been done better by other companies, but that's just my opinion. YMMV.
 
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SentinelStrategic said:
I try and push people away from this setup. I ran a TA01 ACOG with a Trijicon RDS stacked on top in a winged mount as a DM/SDM in the Army. When I first had it, I thought it was better than Biscuits and Gravy. As I used it more and more, I began to really dislike it. It was acceptable for use for me because I rarely used the RDS. I spent most of my time using the ACOG while sitting in LP/OPs out in the open, or in fortified roof bunkers high above the roof lines of Baghdad and Nasiriyah. The RDS sits up something like 4" off the bore line, which is absolutely terrible for CQB use for zeroing optic correctly. I had two angled shims in there just to get myself on target at 25m. When you consider that the ACOG is basically for 50m+, and the RDS is for 0-50m, you have to understand that your zero should be a 25m zero instead of the more preferred 50m, and there is a massive deviation in the trajectory of the round inside those ranges with that optic height. Then you also add in the issue of craning your neck, and you start having neck fatigue issues. You also lose your cheek weld, which makes it hard to maintain a proper reflexive aiming and shooting motion.
If the ACOG is your flavor, It's better to go to a BAC model, and learn to use the BAC reticle with both eyes open and eliminate the need for an RDS.
Personally, I won't use an ACOG again. There are too many better alternatives. The infinite focus induces severe eye strain, and the eye relief sucks. The ACOG is not a good CQB optic. There is a reason why the Army has the M68 CCO in addition to the ACOGs. The ACOGs go to the DM/SDM, and to the soldiers out in the mountains in Afghanistan. Soldiers operating in the cities in Iraq are given the CCOs because they're better suited to CQB, as well as intermediate distances of less than 200m.
If you get an ACOG and RDS combo, you need to get an integrated combination like the ECOS models. If you get a standard model and add the optional mount, the mount will shift and does not fit right. There have been lots of fitment issues, and Trijicon has not fixed them. This causes shift in zero, which is No Bueno.
For the money you'll drop on an ACOG and RDS, you can spend the same amount on several other available optics and get a better package. There are 1-4x scopes on the market that actually do everything the ACOG does, but better. Of comparable price is the US Optics SN-4S 1-4x, but it's a superior optic. You have multiple reticle choices, illumination options, adjustable magnification with a true 1x, a diopter ocular focus, and German glass (better FOV than the narrow FOV of the Trijicon with its Japanese glass).

The ACOG is a die-hard optic, but it's past its prime and is a poor choice for CQB use. Although, rumor is that Trijicon may be developing an ACOG with adjustable magnification...so that could be interesting.

Maybe it was just me, but I was not satisfied with the optional level of brightness adjustment on the RX30 TriPower. I applaud Trijicon for trying to solve that horrid washout issue (which is why our SWAT team is ditching their Reflex sights), but TriPower just doesn't seem to me like it gives you anything over an Aimpoint CompML2. The battery life isn't very good on the Trijicon if you use it a lot, and they don't even have an NVG compatible option.
I think Trijicon's future is with their AccuPoint scopes, and if they do put out a 1-6x with a ranging reticle. That, or an adjustable ACOG. Anything else has been done better by other companies, but that's just my opinion. YMMV.
Click to expand...
I am very interested to know what you would recommend for a pure CQB optic? ( <50m)
 
I run an Aimpoint Micro T-1 and M4S. I've run most of the RDS/reflex optics on the market, and Aimpoints are the only RDS on the market that I have not had problems with, and that can take the abuse I throw out.

The key is to look at your AR and figure out what category you want to be in. CQB, DMR (Designated Marksman Rifle), or SPR (Special Purpose Rifle/long range precision). ACOGs and 1-4x scopes are for DMR use. RDS and reflex optics are for CQB setups.
 
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