I have decided to go with the PM40 from Kahr. I think I got the model number right. Am I correct as the PM40 being Kahr's 40 caliber pocket gun? I think this gun will most suit my needs. I think .40 cal is quite powerful round for pocket gun and as powerful as a pocket gun need to be. I also see it is very light in weight, much more than the pocket revolvers. I will see if I can get a good deal for one, but I think I am sold on this one.
Best Pocket Gun: S&W 640 vs Ruger SP101 vs Kahr PM9
- Thread starter 4Freedom
- Start date
- Status
1KPerDay
Member
let us know how it shoots; I'm curious about the recoil in particular.
The Lone Haranguer
Member
As am I. I suspect you will find the .40 quite a handful in that little gun.1KPerDay said:
mesinge2
Member
9mm Luger revolver with 4 inch barrel?
This might be a little off topic but does anyone know if there is a 9mm Luger revolver with a 4 inch barrel?
This might be a little off topic but does anyone know if there is a 9mm Luger revolver with a 4 inch barrel?
You ruled out the best option (the Smith 340PD) because of material durability issuses. The only issue with material that I know of (and have seen in two guns) is that the alloy cylinder chips/splinters/erodes at the front. If you get the 340 M&P version, it weighs only an ounce more and has a stainless steel cylinder.
I think I have changed my mind about the Kahr PM40. It seems that it may not be as good of a choice. Now, I am back in the situation of not knowing what gun to get. I am hearing the Kahr PM40 has both some nasty recoil and reliability issues. It seems like the PM9 would probably be a better bet, since a Kahr PM9 I hear is actually one of the few pocket guns that can shoot accurately to farther distances, unlike a Kel-Tec.
However, I am starting to wonder if the pocket revolver would be a way to go. SOmeobody told me it is bad to carry revolvers in the pocket, since the lint in your pockets will screw up a revolver more than a semi-auto. Is there any truth to this, or by holstering it, would it eliminate this problem, entirely? I like that a .357 is much more powerful than the 9mm. I think if I ever used this gun, it would be at such a close range ,that pinpoint accuracy would not be an issue. If I need pinpoint accuracy, I would reach for my compact or ful size gun. I think this gun would be used, if my compact or full size gun failed or was dislodged from me.
So, many tell me they have ruined their wrists shooting S&W 340PD with .357? Is it really impossible to shoot decently with this gun? One thing I like about 340PD over the PM9, is that the curved shape of the revolver would be much easier to quickly take out of the pocket versus the rectangular Kahr. Also the Kahr has more things sticking out of it that can get caught in the pocket. I cannot imagine anyone really using a pocket gun for hitting a target beyond 10 yards.
However, I am starting to wonder if the pocket revolver would be a way to go. SOmeobody told me it is bad to carry revolvers in the pocket, since the lint in your pockets will screw up a revolver more than a semi-auto. Is there any truth to this, or by holstering it, would it eliminate this problem, entirely? I like that a .357 is much more powerful than the 9mm. I think if I ever used this gun, it would be at such a close range ,that pinpoint accuracy would not be an issue. If I need pinpoint accuracy, I would reach for my compact or ful size gun. I think this gun would be used, if my compact or full size gun failed or was dislodged from me.
So, many tell me they have ruined their wrists shooting S&W 340PD with .357? Is it really impossible to shoot decently with this gun? One thing I like about 340PD over the PM9, is that the curved shape of the revolver would be much easier to quickly take out of the pocket versus the rectangular Kahr. Also the Kahr has more things sticking out of it that can get caught in the pocket. I cannot imagine anyone really using a pocket gun for hitting a target beyond 10 yards.
cslinger
Member
I have carried pocket revolvers for years now and never had a problem. I currently carry a 640 because I have determined that I want all steel, I want .357 maggie and frankly it conceals just as well as the 642, albeit a bit heavier.
The revolvers are a bit bigger then the semi's but generally are more reliable and tend to look more organic (wallet like) then a semi.
The revolvers allow for a wide limitless range of ammunition choices.
The revolvers work well for all for contact shots, shots from odd angles, shots from inside pockets, are not effected by limp wristing and are harder to grab/pull away. In my mind the minute chance that I may need a firearm I will likely be at contact or wrestling distance and I want something that will shoot no matter what.
I have toyed with picking up a Ruger LCP but no matter what I try I keep coming back to a pocket revolver. You just cannot beat the utility, power, size, reliability etc. You can easily walk around all day with your hand on the revolver ready to present with no one the wiser.
I don't know combat, I am not a LEO, SWAT Team member, soldier, SEAL, GSG9 commando etc. I am low speed and high drag. I do however know what works for me and that seems to be the ubiquitous revolver in .357 with a set of CT grips.
The SP101 which I love as well is too big for practical pocket carry. The Smith 60s, 640s etc. work fine for this.
All that being said this is one person's opinion who has shot a lot of different guns. The tool is just that and it is the mindset, training, confidence and luck that wins the day. Any of your choices is perfectly workable just commit to learning its advantages and disadvantages. Just choose something that is not a complete piece of crap and you are good to go and none of your choices come remotely close to crap.
My two cents.
The revolvers are a bit bigger then the semi's but generally are more reliable and tend to look more organic (wallet like) then a semi.
The revolvers allow for a wide limitless range of ammunition choices.
The revolvers work well for all for contact shots, shots from odd angles, shots from inside pockets, are not effected by limp wristing and are harder to grab/pull away. In my mind the minute chance that I may need a firearm I will likely be at contact or wrestling distance and I want something that will shoot no matter what.
I have toyed with picking up a Ruger LCP but no matter what I try I keep coming back to a pocket revolver. You just cannot beat the utility, power, size, reliability etc. You can easily walk around all day with your hand on the revolver ready to present with no one the wiser.
I don't know combat, I am not a LEO, SWAT Team member, soldier, SEAL, GSG9 commando etc. I am low speed and high drag. I do however know what works for me and that seems to be the ubiquitous revolver in .357 with a set of CT grips.
The SP101 which I love as well is too big for practical pocket carry. The Smith 60s, 640s etc. work fine for this.
All that being said this is one person's opinion who has shot a lot of different guns. The tool is just that and it is the mindset, training, confidence and luck that wins the day. Any of your choices is perfectly workable just commit to learning its advantages and disadvantages. Just choose something that is not a complete piece of crap and you are good to go and none of your choices come remotely close to crap.
My two cents.
Last edited:
The 640, 642, 340 or 340PD all seem like good choices as a pocket gun. I was reading however that all new revolvers have an internal lock that can make the gun malfunction during the time you need it most. Do you have any idea how expensive or how hard it would be to remove this internal lock, so you don't have to worry about it? Do you know how much a gunsmith would charge to do this? I don't see what advantage there is in having it, since it can result in problems.
Also, do you find the extra 8 or so ounces of the 640 to make carrying uncomfortable compared to the 642 or 340PD? Or perhaps, does the extra 8 ounces not a big deal in the pocket and also make the recoil much more manageable? WHat is it like shooting .357s out of the 640? I was told with a snubnose revolver there is no extra advantage or power from shooting a .357 from a .38 +p round, is this true?
Also, do you find the extra 8 or so ounces of the 640 to make carrying uncomfortable compared to the 642 or 340PD? Or perhaps, does the extra 8 ounces not a big deal in the pocket and also make the recoil much more manageable? WHat is it like shooting .357s out of the 640? I was told with a snubnose revolver there is no extra advantage or power from shooting a .357 from a .38 +p round, is this true?
cslinger
Member
My opinions only.
Stay away from the scandium/unobtanium revolvers. They carry great, but they will shy you away from practice and I am not recoil shy.
The extra weight does make a difference but to me not enough to matter. Again this is for me only. The weight might drive you crazy. Try before you buy.
.357 out of a snubbie is more powerful then .38+P but the advantage gained is not as big as if it were a 4-6 inch barrel. This extra power, although small, and the simple versatility of what can be shot sells it for me.
The extra few oz. make a huge difference in follow up shots and shootability but I might just be a big pus....ahhh girly man.
Ahhh the lock. I don't think you have an opener big enough for that can of worms. Yes the lock has malfunctioned. Yes I do not want the lock. That being said based on my research the statistical chances of the lock failing are probably up there with any other part failing (ammo, firing pin hammer spring etc.) Do your research and make your own choice. For me I decided to go no lock in my revos. This choice is due to aesthetics and principal more then mechanics. But be aware the locks HAVE INDEED FAILED. This is just food for thought, not a statistical absolute.
Removing the lock is absolutely easy. The problem is or may be the fact that a lawyer may attack you for this making you look like a maniac. Now again chances are they will attack you for any number of other things as well so this is once again one of those personal risk assessments that is a personal choice to you.
Me I am a no lock kind of guy, although the statistics, risk evaluation person I am in real life (job) knows that the lock is likely pretty benign (although ugly). The gunny in me sees it as both another poorly designed item to go wrong and a sellout so I will not own one. You pays your money and takes your chances.
I personally think (lock or no lock) a Smith 642, 442, 638, Model 60, 640 or 649 are just about perfect for self defense firearms. I am still not sold on those uber light hand grenades though.
Stay away from the scandium/unobtanium revolvers. They carry great, but they will shy you away from practice and I am not recoil shy.
The extra weight does make a difference but to me not enough to matter. Again this is for me only. The weight might drive you crazy. Try before you buy.
.357 out of a snubbie is more powerful then .38+P but the advantage gained is not as big as if it were a 4-6 inch barrel. This extra power, although small, and the simple versatility of what can be shot sells it for me.
The extra few oz. make a huge difference in follow up shots and shootability but I might just be a big pus....ahhh girly man.
Ahhh the lock. I don't think you have an opener big enough for that can of worms. Yes the lock has malfunctioned. Yes I do not want the lock. That being said based on my research the statistical chances of the lock failing are probably up there with any other part failing (ammo, firing pin hammer spring etc.) Do your research and make your own choice. For me I decided to go no lock in my revos. This choice is due to aesthetics and principal more then mechanics. But be aware the locks HAVE INDEED FAILED. This is just food for thought, not a statistical absolute.
Removing the lock is absolutely easy. The problem is or may be the fact that a lawyer may attack you for this making you look like a maniac. Now again chances are they will attack you for any number of other things as well so this is once again one of those personal risk assessments that is a personal choice to you.
Me I am a no lock kind of guy, although the statistics, risk evaluation person I am in real life (job) knows that the lock is likely pretty benign (although ugly). The gunny in me sees it as both another poorly designed item to go wrong and a sellout so I will not own one. You pays your money and takes your chances.
I personally think (lock or no lock) a Smith 642, 442, 638, Model 60, 640 or 649 are just about perfect for self defense firearms. I am still not sold on those uber light hand grenades though.
Last edited:
cslinger
Member
One other thing you have to take into consideration. I am just some schmuck on the interwebz and as I have said I have no combat shooting experience with the exception of some various training IDPA, IPSC, shoot houses etc. Nor do I want any real experience. My general philosophy revolves around the scream like a little girl and run away kind of tactics maybe popping off a few rounds over my shoulder. Just call me Brave Sir. Robin.
So take the advice for what it is worth, which means find yourself some ex SAS bloke and listen to him.
I am all about the avoid and or de-escalate plans. I am all about have a beer to laugh about things later.
So take the advice for what it is worth, which means find yourself some ex SAS bloke and listen to him.
I am all about the avoid and or de-escalate plans. I am all about have a beer to laugh about things later.
Thanks for the info. Well, I would try to find one without a lock,but as far as I can tell, all the S&W revolvers I am seeing today have the internal lock, so there is not much I can do about it. Yeah, if being thrown in prison because I removed the lock is a concern, then I guess I will just have to leave it there. That really sucks.. Shame on S&W for making these. If there is a place you know that sells S&W pocket revolvers without locks for a good price, you can let me know.
Just out of curiousity, how about this little cannon as a pocket gun, let say, I file down the hammer. The S&W 329 Night Guard with .44 6 rounds.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...ted=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=50802
Wow, I wonder if this gun would fly out of my hands if I fired it. Ever try it? I notice the night guard series guns are appx, 3/4 - 1 inch longer than the J Frames, but for the little extra weight and size you get significantly more powerful rounds and high capacity. I notice they have a few more interesting guns in this model:
S&W 386 Night guard, .357, 7 rounds
S&W 327 Night Guard, .357, 8 rounds
S&W 310 Night Guard, 10mm/40 S&W , 6 rounds
I suppose these many be too big to put in your pocket, but would be really cool pocket guns, if you could somehow shroud the hammer. But I just wonder about recoil of a .357 or .44 in such a small gun. Do you know how much it would cost for a gunsmith to shroud the hammer on these guns?
Just out of curiousity, how about this little cannon as a pocket gun, let say, I file down the hammer. The S&W 329 Night Guard with .44 6 rounds.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...ted=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=50802
Wow, I wonder if this gun would fly out of my hands if I fired it. Ever try it? I notice the night guard series guns are appx, 3/4 - 1 inch longer than the J Frames, but for the little extra weight and size you get significantly more powerful rounds and high capacity. I notice they have a few more interesting guns in this model:
S&W 386 Night guard, .357, 7 rounds
S&W 327 Night Guard, .357, 8 rounds
S&W 310 Night Guard, 10mm/40 S&W , 6 rounds
I suppose these many be too big to put in your pocket, but would be really cool pocket guns, if you could somehow shroud the hammer. But I just wonder about recoil of a .357 or .44 in such a small gun. Do you know how much it would cost for a gunsmith to shroud the hammer on these guns?
cslinger
Member
Those Night Guards ARE NOT pocket guns anyway you cut it. Stick with a J Frame in this regard.
As for no lock, they are out there just do some searching on Gunbroker, or local gun shows.
If you don't feel adequately armed with 5 rounds of .38+P or .357 maggie then my own personal opinion is you may need to rethink you life/lifestyle.
I know, I know, I can hear the faithful sighing saying more is never bad and I agree but in my own personal risk analysis and tactics 5 rounds will do me fine and I carry a reload if need be. If that doesn't work in the few scant seconds that make for a real world confrontation I am likely already bleeding profusely and I am not sure the extra 12 rounds from a Glock 17 will do much more then get me post humous revenge.
Again I am very much of the mindset that I can shoot and make work a great many firearms. Find the one that works for you and learn it. In my mind people get too hung up on capacity, power, etc. and then don't actually carry....and ther is that whole rule about having a gun being the primary one in a gun fight. For me that is a good pocket revo.
Again the lock in my mind works like this. What are the chances of you ever getting into an armed confrontation? What are the chances of you ever having to discharge your firearm based on said confrontation? What are the chances of failure of that part vs. any other at that critical moment? Again it is kind of hypocritical for me to say this as I wont own a locked gun but like I said it is more out of principal and aesthetics then mechanical failure rate. Its although worth noting if you are in a state that protects you from civil lititgation in a legitimate defensive shoot.
As for no lock, they are out there just do some searching on Gunbroker, or local gun shows.
If you don't feel adequately armed with 5 rounds of .38+P or .357 maggie then my own personal opinion is you may need to rethink you life/lifestyle.
I know, I know, I can hear the faithful sighing saying more is never bad and I agree but in my own personal risk analysis and tactics 5 rounds will do me fine and I carry a reload if need be. If that doesn't work in the few scant seconds that make for a real world confrontation I am likely already bleeding profusely and I am not sure the extra 12 rounds from a Glock 17 will do much more then get me post humous revenge.
Again I am very much of the mindset that I can shoot and make work a great many firearms. Find the one that works for you and learn it. In my mind people get too hung up on capacity, power, etc. and then don't actually carry....and ther is that whole rule about having a gun being the primary one in a gun fight. For me that is a good pocket revo.
Again the lock in my mind works like this. What are the chances of you ever getting into an armed confrontation? What are the chances of you ever having to discharge your firearm based on said confrontation? What are the chances of failure of that part vs. any other at that critical moment? Again it is kind of hypocritical for me to say this as I wont own a locked gun but like I said it is more out of principal and aesthetics then mechanical failure rate. Its although worth noting if you are in a state that protects you from civil lititgation in a legitimate defensive shoot.
2ndamd
Member
Just reading through your posts it seems to me you answered your own question. The SP101 sounds like it fits your needs.
I live in KCMO and have been pocket carrying a SP101 for over 8 1/2 years now. Everyday. Not too heavy despite what you hear on the internet.
Glad to see you move away from the Kahr.
I live in KCMO and have been pocket carrying a SP101 for over 8 1/2 years now. Everyday. Not too heavy despite what you hear on the internet.
Glad to see you move away from the Kahr.
cslinger
Member
For me the SP101 isn't too heavy to pocket carry it is just a hair too bulky. The Smith J Frame are just a tad smaller and make the pocket carry difference to me as far as Jeans etc. go.
Chris
Chris
I hear the SP101 is a great shooter, but everyone complains about the weight. At 8 inches and 28ounces, I would almost think the Night Guards would have more of an advantage for pocket carry, since their 357 model, can hold 8 rounds versus 6 for the Ruger. But, then you said Night Guard series is not for pocket carry , nor the Ruger.
You don't feel that the 640 loaded with .357 rounds is too much too carry in your pocket? This seems to be a good choice as far as I can tell. Still, I don't see why a Night guard series revolvers with the hammer filed down, would not be a good pocket gun, especially in the .357 or .45 caliber. Is this because of the extra inch in size?
Also, what is the difference between the S&W 640 and 649?
You don't feel that the 640 loaded with .357 rounds is too much too carry in your pocket? This seems to be a good choice as far as I can tell. Still, I don't see why a Night guard series revolvers with the hammer filed down, would not be a good pocket gun, especially in the .357 or .45 caliber. Is this because of the extra inch in size?
Also, what is the difference between the S&W 640 and 649?
Last edited:
cslinger
Member
The Nightguard you are speaking of is built on an N frame. this is a BIG gun. You can make them lighter through technology, you can make the barrels shorter but there is no getting around this being a big gun. I don't have pictures handy but I have a 3 inch N frame in .45, a 2.5 inch L frame in .357 and a 2.5 inch J frame in .357 all are relatively short barreled but they are noticeably bigger in size in each step up.
The SP101 is night and day smaller then the above, although possibly heavier depending of the frame material of the given Night Guard revo. The SP101 is pocket carryable in a pinch with big pocket but it just a TAD bit too bulky for me.
The 640, although all steel, with the right grips is perfectly pocketable, as is the 649, 60 etc. These just make the upper limit of pocket comfort IMO. The SP101 is just on the outside of pocket comfort. We are talking about a matter of degrees.
The 649 is the bodyguard version of the 640, it has a shrouded but useable hammer. The 640 is a completely enclosed hammer, probably better for the rigors of pocket carry.
The 642, 442, 638 are all alloy framed .38+Ps that are probably the sweet spot for power to weight to controlablity. I just prefer the heavier steel and .357 capability of the 640.
Its hard to describe with text and, unfortunately, it really is something you need to try for yourself. As I have said the 640/60/649 are a sweet spot for me. Small enough to pocket carry, heavy enough to shoot well, chambered in .357 and long proven.
I own or have owned a 642, 638, 442, 60, 640, SP101 and the 640 with small CT grips on it is just about my sweet spot for a CCW.
The SP101 is night and day smaller then the above, although possibly heavier depending of the frame material of the given Night Guard revo. The SP101 is pocket carryable in a pinch with big pocket but it just a TAD bit too bulky for me.
The 640, although all steel, with the right grips is perfectly pocketable, as is the 649, 60 etc. These just make the upper limit of pocket comfort IMO. The SP101 is just on the outside of pocket comfort. We are talking about a matter of degrees.
The 649 is the bodyguard version of the 640, it has a shrouded but useable hammer. The 640 is a completely enclosed hammer, probably better for the rigors of pocket carry.
The 642, 442, 638 are all alloy framed .38+Ps that are probably the sweet spot for power to weight to controlablity. I just prefer the heavier steel and .357 capability of the 640.
Its hard to describe with text and, unfortunately, it really is something you need to try for yourself. As I have said the 640/60/649 are a sweet spot for me. Small enough to pocket carry, heavy enough to shoot well, chambered in .357 and long proven.
I own or have owned a 642, 638, 442, 60, 640, SP101 and the 640 with small CT grips on it is just about my sweet spot for a CCW.
Well, I guess I will go with the S&W 640.. Gosh there is just too many choices :banghead: . Yeah, I can spend a lifetime or maybe two lifetimes looking for the best pocket gun. After lots of research, I think this gun would be the most appropriate. Yeah, I like the ability to shoot .357's, as I see it can also be an efficient gun for carrying in rural areas against animals. Sometimes a small gun can be the only gun you can reach if an animal ambushes you and is chewing on you.
I am open to other suggestions from other people. I hear the Ruger SP101 is a better made gun and is more accurate than the S&W guns, of course that is always open to debate, I am sure. However, I have had many people complain about concealing this gun. Its nice it has the extra round, but perhaps that extra round is what makes the gun hard to conceal in the pocket.
Well, I am going to search for a good deal on a S&W 640. I think the Kahr PM9 is not a good choice, because I have heard to many people talk about issues with the PM9 malfunctioning. The last thing I want is my gun to malfunction when I need it most. Also, the Kahrs are not all that small and I think if you really needed to pull it quick, such a gun may get stuck in your pocket while your adrenaline is pumping.
I suppose the Bodyguard 249 style would not be good, since having an open area in the gun where the hammer is, would result in lint buildup in the area. Better the gun is more enclosed.
I am open to other suggestions from other people. I hear the Ruger SP101 is a better made gun and is more accurate than the S&W guns, of course that is always open to debate, I am sure. However, I have had many people complain about concealing this gun. Its nice it has the extra round, but perhaps that extra round is what makes the gun hard to conceal in the pocket.
Well, I am going to search for a good deal on a S&W 640. I think the Kahr PM9 is not a good choice, because I have heard to many people talk about issues with the PM9 malfunctioning. The last thing I want is my gun to malfunction when I need it most. Also, the Kahrs are not all that small and I think if you really needed to pull it quick, such a gun may get stuck in your pocket while your adrenaline is pumping.
I suppose the Bodyguard 249 style would not be good, since having an open area in the gun where the hammer is, would result in lint buildup in the area. Better the gun is more enclosed.
I have changed my mind again. I think I would really like to have the lighter weight gun for pocket carry. I think I am going to go with the S&W M&P 340 with the Stainless Steel Cylinder. A gun like this, I am not planning on long range competition. I want it for very close quarters, last minute, SHTF, type of stuff. I think in the city I could just caryy 38 special loads, but if I can become more proficient I can move up to .38 +P and .357s. I think a light pocket gun would be an advantage, as some days I may wear clothing material that may not properly handle the 25oz gun. Also, a heavier gun would have the habit of bulging, sagging or being more noticeable than the featherweight gun. Perhaps I will think it over and get a .38 lightweight model instead, but I like having the ability to go up to .357, although I hear many people cannot handle the recoil.
Has anyone successfully been able to shoot a S&W 340 or 340PD with .357 loads and be able to consistently hit targets at 10 yards?
Has anyone successfully been able to shoot a S&W 340 or 340PD with .357 loads and be able to consistently hit targets at 10 yards?
i just had the same problem except between the 640 327 pd and 442 two months back my gun dealer said he could get me one for 600 out the door then when i was ready a week ago the price had gone up to 690 i ended up finding one for 600 anyway...good luck in your search hope we made the right choice....that new ruger lcr that comes out next month is looking pretty nice though
- Status
