Sebastian the Ibis
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What is the best solvent for cleaning a filthy AR chamber after shooting Russian Ammo? Is there anything better than ordinary Hoppe's?
Best solvent for Russian Ammo?
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briansmithwins
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CLP works. Works even better if you use the chamber brush.
Personally, I'd probably use the same Simple Green Aircraft cleaner mixed with water I use for cleaning up after corrosive ammo. That stuff cuts carbon like a treat. Only downside if you MUST oil afterwards as it strips the old oil off.
BSW
Personally, I'd probably use the same Simple Green Aircraft cleaner mixed with water I use for cleaning up after corrosive ammo. That stuff cuts carbon like a treat. Only downside if you MUST oil afterwards as it strips the old oil off.
BSW
christcorp
Member
There is absolutely no difference in cleaning after shooting russian ammo. I use Hoppe #9 and a bore brush and a chamber brush.
People hear some of us getting on people who complain about russian ammo having ejection and feed problem, and that we tell them it's because they don't clean their rifle properly. Here's the deal. There are a lot of macho gun owners out there that actually brag about shooting 500-1000 rounds and never cleaning their rifle. That they simply lube it up a little. These are the people we are referring to when we mention that they need to clean their guns.
Most shooters clean their guns after an outing. The only time I don't clean my guns after an outing, is if I only shot a magazine or two through it for sighting in. E.g. I just put a new EOTech sight on my AR. I shot 2 magazines of PMC and 2 magazines of Russian. (20 round mags). That's only 80 rounds. When I got home, I just ran a bore snake through it. But if you normally clean your gun after shooting 100, 200, 300 rounds in an afternoon, then just clean it like normal. Just make sure you have a chamber brush to clean that area well. The russian ammo is not corrosive. You don't have to clean it any differently than brass ammo.
People hear some of us getting on people who complain about russian ammo having ejection and feed problem, and that we tell them it's because they don't clean their rifle properly. Here's the deal. There are a lot of macho gun owners out there that actually brag about shooting 500-1000 rounds and never cleaning their rifle. That they simply lube it up a little. These are the people we are referring to when we mention that they need to clean their guns.
Most shooters clean their guns after an outing. The only time I don't clean my guns after an outing, is if I only shot a magazine or two through it for sighting in. E.g. I just put a new EOTech sight on my AR. I shot 2 magazines of PMC and 2 magazines of Russian. (20 round mags). That's only 80 rounds. When I got home, I just ran a bore snake through it. But if you normally clean your gun after shooting 100, 200, 300 rounds in an afternoon, then just clean it like normal. Just make sure you have a chamber brush to clean that area well. The russian ammo is not corrosive. You don't have to clean it any differently than brass ammo.
Snakum
Member
Even using corrosive Jugo ammo I still just use CLP on it. Never had an issue. Nothing special required.
JustinJ
Member
I've heard the lacquer on steel cased ammo can melt and then solidify in the chamber. I'm not sure what would work best to dissolve it but something like paint thinner or break cleaner may work.
If you're shooting a 5.45 ar upper with surplus russian ammo it is corrosive and must be cleaned with a water based product.
If you're shooting a 5.45 ar upper with surplus russian ammo it is corrosive and must be cleaned with a water based product.
Sport45
Member
Clean them with the same stuff the Russians use. 
Seriously, clean up the same way you would after shooting anything else. (And cull out any cartridges that have runs in the laquer.
If you see any laquer, that is)
Seriously, clean up the same way you would after shooting anything else. (And cull out any cartridges that have runs in the laquer.
If you see any laquer, that is)
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ColtPythonElite
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I clean my duty AR with Simple Green. Followed rinse with brake cleaner. It always passes inspection when the armorers take a gander at it.
I guess that I'm one of those macho guys that never cleans their AR. 4000 rounds here and it's still running. I don't know where that stuff about dirty ammo stopping an AR comes from. As long as it's properly lubed, it should run.
As for this....
No offense to Justin, but I really wish that people would quit posting about "what they heard" if they have no basis in fact to rest the comment on. The lacquer DOES NOT come off of the cases and stick in the chamber.
As for this....
No offense to Justin, but I really wish that people would quit posting about "what they heard" if they have no basis in fact to rest the comment on. The lacquer DOES NOT come off of the cases and stick in the chamber.
JustinJ
Member
"No offense to Justin, but I really wish that people would quit posting about "what they heard" if they have no basis in fact to rest the comment on. The lacquer DOES NOT come off of the cases and stick in the chamber. "
Considering that my post started with "i heard" it was evidently not being made as a factual or misleading statement. Saying it "does not come off in the chamber" without evidence that it doesnt would be.
Considering that my post started with "i heard" it was evidently not being made as a factual or misleading statement. Saying it "does not come off in the chamber" without evidence that it doesnt would be.
Ah geez. OK, I took a fired, lacquer coated case. Put it into a vice and heated it with a torch to red hot and the lacquer didn't come off.
As for your claimed qualification that it was just something that you heard, the statement that followed...
As for your claimed qualification that it was just something that you heard, the statement that followed...
certainly implied that you were representing it as true.
I did this too. Held the blowtorch on it for a couple of minutes. What basically happens is the case smokes a little and turns from green to black. At no point it time does it run, become sticky, flake, or anything else. It just dryburns when it gets *very* hot....far hotter than you'd get it by shooting.
I reckon Sport45's answer is about right
JustinJ
Member
"certainly implied that you were representing it as true. "
Given that the comment referenced something i cleary said that i had only heard there is no such implication.
"Ah geez. OK, I took a fired, lacquer coated case. Put it into a vice and heated it with a torch to red hot and the lacquer didn't come off."
Given that your experiment was with an already fired case with the direct flame of a torch the conditions are far too different from what happens when a bullet is fired to confirm anything. I don't know for a fact that the lacquer melts and resolidifies but that does not really offer much one way or the other. I do know that specs of red lacquer can be clearly seen in the receiver when i shoot steel cased russian ammo through any of my ak47s and ak74s. The melting point of lacquer is generally low although there are types with higher ones. Either way i see no reason it could not melt and resolidify, ecspecially during rapid fire. One thing i suppose that could theoretically prevent this from happening is the heat and pressure could burn up lacquer in the chamber and essentially convert it to simple carbon residue.
Given that the comment referenced something i cleary said that i had only heard there is no such implication.
"Ah geez. OK, I took a fired, lacquer coated case. Put it into a vice and heated it with a torch to red hot and the lacquer didn't come off."
Given that your experiment was with an already fired case with the direct flame of a torch the conditions are far too different from what happens when a bullet is fired to confirm anything. I don't know for a fact that the lacquer melts and resolidifies but that does not really offer much one way or the other. I do know that specs of red lacquer can be clearly seen in the receiver when i shoot steel cased russian ammo through any of my ak47s and ak74s. The melting point of lacquer is generally low although there are types with higher ones. Either way i see no reason it could not melt and resolidify, ecspecially during rapid fire. One thing i suppose that could theoretically prevent this from happening is the heat and pressure could burn up lacquer in the chamber and essentially convert it to simple carbon residue.
That has got nothing to do with the case "lacquer" whatsoever....that's the primer sealant. Cleans out easily enough.
JustinJ
Member
"That has got nothing to do with the case "lacquer" whatsoever....that's the primer sealant. Cleans out easily enough. "
What is the substance that is used as the primer sealant?
What is the substance that is used as the primer sealant?
bigfatdave
Member
"laquer comes off" myth was covered by the box o truth quite a while back:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm
Why does the myth persist? Who knows?
I heard the myth persists on the internet because bad info just sits there searchable forever, even when it becomes grossly obsolete or is disproved as false from the start.
And you don't need a special solvent for modern steel ammo, just a bit more elbow grease and any commercial solvent. The reason your gun is dirtier with steel ammo is that it doesn't seal the chamber as well and blows crud back into the action more than a brass round would. So if your gun will run a bit on the dry side, that will help when running the cheapo steel because you won't be making that lube/grit compound and the crud can just blow through.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm
Why does the myth persist? Who knows?
I heard the myth persists on the internet because bad info just sits there searchable forever, even when it becomes grossly obsolete or is disproved as false from the start.
And you don't need a special solvent for modern steel ammo, just a bit more elbow grease and any commercial solvent. The reason your gun is dirtier with steel ammo is that it doesn't seal the chamber as well and blows crud back into the action more than a brass round would. So if your gun will run a bit on the dry side, that will help when running the cheapo steel because you won't be making that lube/grit compound and the crud can just blow through.
Maple_City_Woodsman
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Yup. Just like 'racking' a shotgun, knock-down power, and grizzly bears.
As to the topic at hand, I don't see what need is being perceived as needing 'solvents'. Hot water will flush out any powder fowling or burnt residue and dissolve any corrosive salts. A followup coating with literally any light oil will prevent rust.
I suppose fouling from copper jackets or lead bullets could accumulate, but the simple truth is that 99% of shooters don't shoot enough rounds in any given session to accumulate sufficient fouling to affect accuracy by any appreciable amount. As such I see no need to make expensive or hazardous solvents a regular part of a cleaning routine - use sparingly only when needed.
briansmithwins
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Regular Simple Green can eat aluminum. It's basic enough it attacks the protective oxide surface.
I've etched aluminum parts with Simple Green before.
BSW
ColtPythonElite
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Diluted 50/50 Simple Green hasn't hurt the aluminum on my AR in the past decade, nor the polished aluminum on my bikes.....Yeah, I guess if you left pure stuff on there long enough you may have problems, but I don't see one if you rinse it off promptly....And yes, I know they make an "aircraft" version that is said to be aluminum safe. I have a bottle of it that I got for free when it first came out.
Maybe lacquer doesn't burn off those steel case rounds in the chamber, but I had to take a .45 cal. brush on a drill to the chamber on my SKS after about 8,000-10,000 rounds of combloc steel case rounds because it refused to fire American rounds. This gun was always carefully cleaned after each session because I used corrosive ammo almost exclusively, but it's possible I didn't do as good a job on the chamber as I thought. The problem may have been built-up lacquer, a problem due to the difference between CIP and SAAMI specs, or blowback from steel case rounds, but once I scrubbed the chamber it fired US made rounds just fine and still fires either one.
Just as an aside; are we talking about the same Mythbusters show that tried to claim SGT. Carlos Hathcock couldn't have shot a Vietnamese sniper through the scope on a Mosin Nagant by using a .308 round as their example? Hathcock was using a Winchester Model 70 in 30.06 with a 173 grn Sierra boattail round and a follow-up show demonstrated the round would go through the scope...
Just as an aside; are we talking about the same Mythbusters show that tried to claim SGT. Carlos Hathcock couldn't have shot a Vietnamese sniper through the scope on a Mosin Nagant by using a .308 round as their example? Hathcock was using a Winchester Model 70 in 30.06 with a 173 grn Sierra boattail round and a follow-up show demonstrated the round would go through the scope...
christcorp
Member
Tony; I knew someone was gonna get the "Macho" comment. Personally, I don't go 4,000 without cleaning steel case. There is blowback because of the steel case. Have I go thousands of rounds between cleaning of brass ammo? Yes. Like you said, keep an AR well lubed and she'll keep spitting out bullets. But the majority of the people who have issues, usually have so because they shoot steel like brass. Thousands of rounds in between cleanings, and they don't realize that the chamber is getting residue/carbon because of blowback. I'm definitely not worried about the bore.
As for the melting lacquer, I'm glad you all responded. I almost popped a cork. Unfortunately, such myths will continue to perpetuate. Why? Too many people think if they read it on the internet, it must be true. They don't do any actual research on their own. Plus, when they do have problems, they don't want to admit that it's probably either them or their weapon that's the problem. So they naturally have to find something to blame.
Anyway Tony; I don't think you're one of the "macho men" that i am referring to.
JustinJ
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""laquer comes off" myth was covered by the box o truth quite a while back:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm
Why does the myth persist? Who knows?
I heard the myth persists on the internet because bad info just sits there searchable forever, even when it becomes grossly obsolete or is disproved as false from the start."
The events described are with polymer ammo. The only "evidence" that link provides is the comments of some "expert" from ar15.com says so. It does offer a viable explanation but it is not proven in any way. Even if what they experienced from just 100 rounds was carbon that does not mean lacquer can not melt and solidify as well. Reports i've read of lacquire build up have generally occurred with high round counts. Again, i don't know for sure that lacquer melts and resolidifies but I've yet to see anything that proves it does not either.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm
Why does the myth persist? Who knows?
I heard the myth persists on the internet because bad info just sits there searchable forever, even when it becomes grossly obsolete or is disproved as false from the start."
The events described are with polymer ammo. The only "evidence" that link provides is the comments of some "expert" from ar15.com says so. It does offer a viable explanation but it is not proven in any way. Even if what they experienced from just 100 rounds was carbon that does not mean lacquer can not melt and solidify as well. Reports i've read of lacquire build up have generally occurred with high round counts. Again, i don't know for sure that lacquer melts and resolidifies but I've yet to see anything that proves it does not either.
I don't know what it is...it's nail polish like. It mostly burns off, but can leave a little bit of gooey residue in the firing pin channel after many rounds, so if you are shooting a lot of sealed ammo, good idea to be a bit more particular about cleaning; although I've never known it to cause any problems. Worth pointing out that a lot of military and surplus ammo the world over also has sealed primers - its not unique to Russian and steel cased ammo at all.
IMO, a lot of the lacquer "melting" in the chamber myth came about because on the Wolf of several years ago, they used to liberally seal the neck of the round with the same stuff; this could conceivably lead to some sort of melty substance in the chamber, which could be mistaken for melted case lacquer. For the last few years however, both Wolf and Bear have discontinued the neck sealing practice.
Been using Hoppe's 9 for over 50 years and it does just fine. The "coating" on some steel cased 7.62x54r does soften when the barrel gets hot and pollutes the chamber. That is why the bolt on Mosin Nagants gets hard to open. Easy enough to chean when cleaning the rifle though, which you have to do when shooting surplus ammo.....chris3
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