Best velocities for these .45 Colt defense bullets?

[DHart]

I'm giving some thought as to what .45 Colt bullets I would like to load for defense purposes. I've narrowed to a range of JHP bullets from 200 to 260 gr. (These will be used in a new lever rifle, so concerns about handgun recoil, or use in old or weak firearms don't apply.)

I'm really just trying to determine what velocities might provide optimal defense bullet performance (good expansion, deep penetration, minimal bullet fragmentation) for each of these bullets. Because they will be used in a rifle, moderately hot loadings are no problem.

In general I get the impression that Gold Dots may hold together better than the other JHP designs, but I'm not sure. While I'm confident that any of them would get the job done, if I had to just pick one myself, I think I'd lean toward the 250 gr. Gold Dot at about 1250 fps., but I'm no expert.

I'm just looking for an approximate, general velocity range best suited to each bullet.

Speer 200 gr. Gold Dot JHP
Speer 250 gr. Gold Dot JHP
Speer 225 gr. JHP
Speer 260 gr. JHP
Sierra 240 gr. JHC

Are any of these bullets likely to be superior performing defense loads, all other factors aside?

Thanks in advance.

 

[zeke]

Ain't no exspurt either, but would feel real comfortable with Speer's 250 gn gdhp @ 1250 fps. In highly unofficius testing, couldn't get this bullet to open up till 1100 fps. Would suspect it to open sooner in gelatin or water. Am not aware of any officious testing of this bullet, yet. Also haven't given it full reliability testing of feeding. Am currently considering this bullet of choice, for the purpose, but need more load developement. While this bullet has huge hollow point, ther is a lot of weight backing it up.

Would be worried about drving the 200 gn GD much over 1100-1200 fps, if ya need some penetration. Would also worry about lack of cannelure?

Am suspecting Speer's 225 gn sjhp could stand up to some higher velocites.

Don't have any experience with the other bullets mentioned.

 

[DHart]

Zeke... we're thinking along the same lines. Right now my .45 Colt defense loads are: (as measured at 9' from the muzzle of my Win 92 Trapper):

•Georgia Arms 200 gr. Gold Dot JHP 1424 fps / 901 fpe

•Corbon 200 gr. JHP 1439 fps / 920 fpe

I think these are running a little too fast out of the 16" Trapper barrel and might over expand / under penetrate... but I am just guestimating that.

Speer makes a .45 Colt 250 gr. Gold Dot defense load, probably intended to be fired from a pistol. It is loaded relatively mildly, giving just 948 fps / 498 fpe from a 16" Trapper. At that speed and weight enetration would probably be ok, but expansion might be little if any. It feeds and functions just fine though. I'm sure it would do in a pinch as well, but pushing that same bullet to 1250 would seem to be a much more effective loading.

There are no really good defense loads in .45 Colt being commerically made, as these three above are the closest there is and the first two are still probably too fast for just a 200 gr. bullet and the Speer is not fast enough. While these would probably suffice for the purpose, I think a 250 gr. Gold Dot moving out at 1250 would be just about right. Energy would be 867 fpe. My Winchester 92 and 94 Trappers feed and fire anything I put in them, so I'm confident the load would run just fine.

Just for the record... and lest I come off looking like some bloodthirsty commando hoping for a gunfight... I live my life in such a way as to minimize the possibility that I would ever have to defend my life against some idiot with bad intent. The last thing I would want to do is have to defend my life or others against an evil-doer. And the likelihood of ever having to put my guns to defense use is next to none (fortunately). That said, I find the topic of defense ammo intriguing and enjoy the process of analysing the tools and practicing with them... should the unthinkable actually become reality, I like being prepared. In the mean time, I just enjoy working with these beautiful guns for pleasure's sake.

I do wonder how the Gold Dot designs differ in performance from the non-Gold Dot JHP designs I listed above... anyone have any idea?

 

[popbang]

I have to disagree with your opinion on the 250-grain Gold Dots. Take a look at the Speer site and even in the Ruger only loads, they don't recommend higher velocity loadings. So, without any reputable testing being done I would lean toward a belief that Speer is correct in its velocity range.

The 200-grain Gold Dot is the same bullet as used in 45 ACP loadings and there it is not a good performer in most testing. Maybe with it going faster it would expand better.

As far as the 225-grain, Speer JHP I would think that it would be a candidate to work at higher velocity of your carbine.

The offering by Sierra should be an accurate offering, but their prime concern does not seem to be defensive use.

One that is not on your list, but that I think deserves a look would be Remington's 230 grain Golden Sabers. The operating range for them is around 850 fps, so high velocity is not needed. I load mine to 950 fps. They do not have a cannelure to crimp in, but they do have what they call a driving band at the base with the nose portion being under caliber. So, I crimp and they seem to hold good for me both in handguns and in rifles.

 

[zeke]

popbang-Speer's site also says the bullet may be fine for deer, but not dangerous game? Would be nice to see some actual officius testing, through four layers of denim into gelatin. In the un officius medium used, the 250 gn bullet fully expanded (1 in) down to the base, and held together very well at 1380 fps retaining 200 gns. At 1150 fps, bullet expanded and left a driving shank behind the mushroom, retained full 250 gns.

The 230 Golden Saber design might also work very well, as the expanded part seems to fold over, instead of expanding right down to the base. Would still prefer a cannelured bullet for carbines, however.

DHart-Also have developed a hobby of experimenting with loads, where the factories haven't filled a want. Have spent most of this time for 3 in 45 acps, lately.

 

[DHart]

popbang... just what velocities does Speer say the 250 gr. Gold Dot performs best at? Do they actually suggest optimum velocities for their various bullet offerings? That would be great. Can you give me a link to where you read the suggested velocity?

The 200 gr. .45 cal. Gold Dot does have a full canelure on it, which would seem to suggest that it isn't designed for .45 acp, but I could be wrong on that.

It would certainly seem that at that weight (250 gr.), 1150 -1250 or so would be ideal and some unofficial testing seems to bear that out. If the bullet expands well at 950-1000, and with all the weight it carries, it would probably expand fully AND give excellent penetration when driven at 1100-1200. Driving it at 1500-1600 or so would most likely cause it to disintegrate quite early, but it would seem that 1200 shouldn't adversely affect the performance. Unfortunately, I don't have the ability to do terminal ballistics testing on it, but I'm sure there is some real world feedback on it somewhere...

Zeke... this is really fun stuff to me. Like you, I'd like to work up some awesome loads that the major makers are missing out on. Like with .44 magnum. Only ProLoad offers a .44 mag "Lite" for defense use. All the other .44 mag offerings are supercharged hunting loads, not something you'd like to use for personal defense in your .44 revolver or Winchester 94 Trapper for home defense. It seems to me that for people who wish to use .44 mag and .45 Colt chambered weapons for personal defense, there should be a 250 gr. JHP load traveling at about 1050 fps from a pistol and about 1200 fps from a carbine. Guess I'll just have to make my own in each caliber! This will be a fun project.

 

[Desert Dog]

The only one on your list that I am familiar with is the Speer 260 gr. JHP. This bullet should be able to be pushed up to 1400 FPS with no issues, and guaranteed to expand at that velocity since it is a hunting round similar to the Hornady XTP's. Overpenetration could be an issue.

Speaking of Hornady XTP's, these are my JHP's of choice for heavy .45 Colt. They hold together better than any bullet I have used at higher velocities, followed closely by the Sierra 230 gr. Power Jacket HP, which is my .45 Super bullet of choice for self-defense. I push it at 1200 FPS and it expands into a very deadly copper/lead "flower" of about .75" in diameter...

 

[DHart]

Desert... it sounds like the Gold Dots in general are designed to expand at lower velocities, let's say 950 to 1100 or so and the regular JHP's and XTP's are designed to expand at significantly higher velocities, like 1200 to 1500... does that sound about right?

Which XTP's are you referring to, the 250 gr.? And are those the ones you get good performance from at 1200 fps?

I bought 100 250 gr. Hornady XTP/JHP bullets today... I guess those should be flying at least 1200 to 1400 if much expansion is expected in personal defense situations. And plenty of deep penetration would likely occur with them as well. They should probably be my "dead of winter" cold weather defense rounds...

 

[popbang]

I have to say when I went to the Speer site I thought the 250 grain Gold Dot wasn't loaded too hot. Well my memory isn't always the best and it is loaded to 1200 fps out of a handgun.

Here is the link to the site: http://www.speer-bullets.com/pdf/ReloadingSupplementalDATA/45coltgd.pdf

I may have to take a serious look at those bullets. Haven't messed with them for carry ammo.

DHart, where are you getting 200 grain Gold Dots with a cannelure? I haven't seen them except as loaded ammo. I still have a couple 350 count boxes of the 200 grain JHP (Flying Ashtray) that was dropped a few years back.

 

[DHart]

Popbang... thanks for the link... that's great! I'll have to study that. From what it looks like at first glance, it seems the 250 gr. Gold Dot will perform just right at 1100-1200 fps.

The 200 gr. Gold Dot bullets I have are loaded in ammo made by Georgia Arms and they do have a cannelure. Try Graf... they may have them.

 

[Desert Dog]

Which XTP's are you referring to, the 250 gr.? And are those the ones you get good performance from at 1200 fps

For .45 Colt the XTP's I use are 300 gr. and they do fly at 1250 FPS out of my Blackhawk, and about 1500 FPS out of my Puma.

No, the ones I talk about in my post are Sierra Power Jackets and they are 230 gr. I use them exclusively for my self-defense loads in my autoloader.

I have noticed you have to push a Hornady XTP faster than 1200 FPS to get them to expand adequately...

Oh yes, an XTP at around 1250 FPS would definitely be a cold weather defense load...

 

[zeke]

popbang-gotta like a guy that hoards flying ashtrays >), saved a couple full green plastic ammo boxes (value packs?) also.

dhart-thave seen several examples of bullet manufacturers supplying ammo companys with cannelured bullets that aren't available to the public. If there are any 200 gn GD with cannelures out there, please let me know!

 

[DHart]

zeke... the 200 gr. Gold Dots I have with cannelures were in cartridges made by Georgia Arms, so I know Speer makes them and GA has access to them, but as to whether there are cannelures on the ones available as just bullets to the general public, I do not know. My interest is more in the 225 to 250 gr. range, so I may not actually buy any 200 grainers.

 

[zeke]

DHart-least i forget, Barnes also offers a 250 gn x bullet, designed for 45 LC. The hollowpoint is as big and deep as the Speer 250 gn GD. Probably wouldn't have to worry about it expanding down to the base They are kinda expensive, and haven't seen any test results from them. Have some, but haven't done any load developement, yet.

 

[DHart]

Thanks zeke... I'll look into those.

Have you purchased the 200 gr. .45 Gold Dots as unloaded bullets? And no cannelure?

 

[Black Snowman]

For high velocities for the caliber I like what I've seen of the Hornady XTPs. They're geared more for hunting but when "over-driving" like from a Casull or a carbine they hold together better than many other offerings and aren't as outragously priced as the Barnes so you can actually afford to do some testing and practice with them.

Picked up some 250 grs for my new SRH in 454. I might have to get something together for expansion testing . . .

 

[DHart]

Snowman... I just bought a box of Hornady 250 gr. XTP in .45 Colt. I get the impression that they need more velocity than the 250 gr. Gold Dots do to expand well (as you would expect from a hunting load). The Gold Dot is designed to expand well at just 900-1000 fps. I'm wondering how slowly I could drive the 250 gr. XTP's and still have good expansion for personal defense use... I'm guessing 1250 to 1350 fps or so... does that sound about right?

 

[Black Snowman]

Anything I gave you would be an educated guess. Hornady doesn't load the .452" XTPs in any of their ammunition so it makes it tough to find a place for comparison.

Precision Crafted Ammunition

Load their's to 1275 (they call it a +P load) and have defense listed as one of it's suggested uses so it should expand reliably near that velocity.

Personally I'd rather have a round that might not expand and definately have plenty of penetration over one that I had to weaken to keep it from fragmenting and possibly not have enough penetration. Higher velocity will help produce a larger wound as well, so what you're giving up in expansion may be made up in energy while guaranteeing your nessisary penetration.

JMHO, YMMV and all that.

 

[DHart]

Snowman... I'm a "gun nut" too and glad to be in such fine company!

Hey, thanks for the reference on 1275 for the XTP 250 gr. That sounds like a great defense load. And I'm in agreement with you that it would probably be better to have a round with greater propensity for good penetration and energy than one more inclined to almost blow up on impact. I'm learning that Gold Dots really vary in their design... some are designed to expand reliably at very low velocities (the .45 250 gr. for example) while others are designed to be driven at much higher velocity and thus have heavier jackets and more robust construction (the .44 210 gr. for example). I think the Gold Dot is an excellent bullet, so i'm trying to learn the details of fine tuning the speed for each one for optimal performance. I'm starting to think that the Hornady 250 gr. XTP in .45 Colt at 1275 to 1400 fps would be an awesome defense load!

 

[zeke]

DHart-have tried Speer's 200 grain GD in 45 acp's. They do not have cannelures. Course i got that little tool from Corbin that puts a cannelure on when desired

 

[DHart]

zeke... I guess Speer puts a cannelure on the 200 gr. .45 Gold Dots for some ammo makers like Georgia Arms, or GA puts the cannelure on the bullet themselves.

I didn't know there was a tool to do that... I think I need one of those! Can you tell me anything more about it?

EDIT: I just did a search and found the Corbin tool... thanks again.

THanks...

 

[Clark]

http://www.sixgunner.com/backissues/taylor/The Colt Single Action.htm

Ask Gary Hanson, Government Hunter, who has taken more bears with a .45 Colt than anyone I know of. He regularly used a Colt New Frontier Single Action with a 310 gr. Keith-style bullet at 1000 fps to shoot big bears. Not always out of trees. At times he crawled back into dens and caves to get them. You better have something that works! He reported the 300 gr. slug penetrated completely and broke everything in it's path. He also used handloads with a 240 gr. jacketed bullet at 1100 fps and said these worked very well also.