Best way to get into long(er) distance shooting?

[Photoguy]

So, say a guy wanted to get started learning some longer range shooting, where to begin?

Here's the situation:

My local range has up to 300yd targets and I've been thinking that it might be fun to learn to "reach out and touch" those far targets. However, I don't have a ton of rifle experience and have a lot of learning. While I'm not a hunter and don't do much "tactical" training type stuff either, I don't want to just learn hardcore benchrest. I think it would be more fun to learn "practical" shooting using various positions including perhaps even offhand. And finally, I'm not really looking to get into the fancy high-power bullseye competition shooting either. More power to those guys, but I'm not really a competition type guy.

My question, should I find a good budget 308 and just go from there? Or would I be better served to start with a good target .22 and learning a lot of technique on closer targets with the cheaper ammo and optics? To be fair, I don't have the cash on hand at the moment to drop a grand or more on a high end 24x scope. So even with a 308, I'd be starting with something lower magnification.

Feel free to tell me that I'm sounding like an idiot. I don't know a ton about this game and am just interested in gathering as much info and as many opinions as I can.

 

[BikerRN]

At 100 Yards the .22 LR will behave like a .308 at 1,000 Yards.

It seems to me that shooting the .22LR at 50 Yards to 100 Yards would be in your best interest. Nothing will replace reading mirage, and various other issues, like wind drift, but it beats not shooting. Also, as your finances improve you can transition to larger caliber/longer ranges with relative ease.

The true fundamentals of being a Rifleman are built on the .22LR.

BikerRN

 

[sarduy]

practice, practice and practice...

and if you practice with a .22lr, you will improve your skill a lot.

22lr at 100 = good work out.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Get a good shooting .22LR and learn the basics of position, sight alignment, breath control and trigger squeeze. These are 100% universal no matter what you shoot later on. Learning them on a .22 takes away the distractions of noise and recoil, which can also mask issues such as flinching.

Later on, grab a .223 of some sort and learn how to hit those 300 yard targets. You don't need a heavy bolt-action .308 "sniper rifle" for that kind of work. As long as the targets are reasonably sized, you'd do well with any number of lighter rifles, including a lightweight .223 sporter, or even an M-4gery carbine. You can shoot a .30-30 reliably to 200 yards on targets, and everybody KNOWS a .30-30 is a short-range brush round...

(For reference, I am one of those Highpower bullseye competition shooters.)

 

[benzy2]

BikerRN, are you sure you have those numbers right? Last I saw a .22lr wind drift at 100 yards was a little under 4" per 10mph crosswind. Seems even the best .308 loads would have a 4" drift at ~250 yards and a 4 MOA drift ~450 yards in the same wind. I thought a .22lr drift at 300 yards had a similar drift (in MOA) as a 1000 yard .308 load.

 

[TonyAngel]

I ran the numbers through my ballistics calculator and came up with this. This is all assuming a constant 10mph 90* crosswind. A .22 will drift about 3" at 100 yards. A .308, firing a 175gr bullet with a bc of around .490 will drift about 3" at 250 yards.

Still, the point is that shooting a .22 will help you to learn the fundamentals and give you an appreciation for the environmental variables that will affect the point of impact.

 

[slowr1der]

At 100 Yards the .22 LR will behave like a .308 at 1,000 Yards.

No, no it won't.

You also have to realize that tiny flinch that may throw you an inch off at 100 yards will throw you way off at 1000.

That being said, shooting longer ranges with a 22 in windy conditions can be a challenge and can help you with reading wind, and getting the other fundamental values. While you see some of this at 100 yards with a .22, you really need to stretch out a fair amount further than that. Once you have the basics down, there really doesn't seem to be a substitute for practice at longer ranges.

That said, shooting at 300 yards shouldn't be too difficult. You will likely have to make small adjustments for the wind, and small adjustments for the elevation. I think you could start out with most any basic decent quality Savage or Remington 700 in .308, 30-06, 7mm-08, 270, or really any other popular caliber and do just fine at 300 yards.

 

[TonyAngel]

I don't completely agree with slowr1der. No, shooting a .22 at 100 is not a replacement for shooting out to 1000, but shooting a centerfire without first building the fundamentals usually results in a lot of frustration.

Besides, shooting a rimfire is a whole different animal. One thing that is more important with a .22 than it is with a centerfire is follow through. Shooting a rimfire is sort of like a condensed version of shooting rimfire. Everything that matters in centerfire, also matters in rimfire though.

There are other considerations. Like cost. I'm not particularly talking about the cost of the rifle, but the cost of the ammunition. Good centerfire ammunition will cost you around a $1 everytime you pull the trigger. Reloading can cut that cost in half, but if you factor in the cost of your time, the cost is still high. I consider Eley Tenex to be some of the best .22 ammo that you can get and that can be had for $17 for a box of 50. That makes for a whole lot more trigger time.

 

[benzy2]

Also factor in barrel life costs. Many centerfires will lose their match accuracy in 700-2000 rounds. That's not to say they aren't still practically accurate, just losing their absolute edge. If you have to rebarrel after say 3000 rounds, and you rebarrel with a $400 blank and a $250 fitting, you need to add another $650 for every 3000 rounds shot. In a rimfire you can go 100-200k rounds before needing a rebarrel, though I know some guys rebarreling around the 10k range if they are playing fairly seriously.

 

[popper]

Mid $ range 243. Low recoil, shoots flat, wide range of bullet weights, basically a necked down 308. You will learn to shoot good at 300 with little effort on your part. Get a real big spotting scope.

 

[Photoguy]

Thank you to everyone. Great info so far.

The specifics of wind drift and whatnot aside, I kind of had a feeling that starting with a 22 might be a good move for learning. And while I had thought about the cost of ammo, the cost of barrels hadn't really crossed my mind. So that's was something new I learned.

 

[slowr1der]

I don't completely agree with slowr1der. No, shooting a .22 at 100 is not a replacement for shooting out to 1000, but shooting a centerfire without first building the fundamentals usually results in a lot of frustration.

Besides, shooting a rimfire is a whole different animal. One thing that is more important with a .22 than it is with a centerfire is follow through. Shooting a rimfire is sort of like a condensed version of shooting rimfire. Everything that matters in centerfire, also matters in rimfire though.

There are other considerations. Like cost. I'm not particularly talking about the cost of the rifle, but the cost of the ammunition. Good centerfire ammunition will cost you around a $1 everytime you pull the trigger. Reloading can cut that cost in half, but if you factor in the cost of your time, the cost is still high. I consider Eley Tenex to be some of the best .22 ammo that you can get and that can be had for $17 for a box of 50. That makes for a whole lot more trigger time.

I do agree with this, and I guess I just worded my previous post wrong. I do think a rimfire is a good idea to use to get the fundamentals down. I just don't think it's a complete substitute for a centerfire at long ranges. If you learn all of the fundamentals with a rimfire at 100-200 yards, yes it will help with a centerfire long range, but you still will most likely need to practice. After you've learned the fundamentals I think it's time to move to a centerfire to try it out. I don't think just because you can shoot a .22 at 100-200 yards, that you will be able to make 1000 yard hits with a centerfire the first time out, but I think you will be a lot better off having learned the basics from the rimfire before trying the centerfire.

 

[slowr1der]

Mid $ range 243. Low recoil, shoots flat, wide range of bullet weights, basically a necked down 308. You will learn to shoot good at 300 with little effort on your part. Get a real big spotting scope.

I've got mixed feelings on this. I love the .243 and think it's a great round. The only downside I see to it for this type of shooting as that it does have quite a bit shorter barrel life than the .308. That said, if you can live with the shorter barrel life, I think the .243 is a great round for any type of shooting.

The barrel life with a centerfire is a concern as they mentioned. Something like a .308, or a 30-06 you should get a fairly long barrel life from. Something like a .243 or 25-06 you will probably get a decent barrel life, but nothing great. From all reports I've read, they seem to last 1500-2000 rounds before they lose their edge. They are still accurate after that if you are hunting or similar, but they aren't going to have the kind of accuracy they did. That said, I've not worn out a .243 barrel personally so I can't give an exact round count other than what I've read.

There are also choices like the 22-250, 220 swift, 264 Winchester Magnum, 7mmSTW, etc that have great performance, but have an extremely short barrel life. While some guys love these things, I'm just not a big fan as I'd rather give up a little performance for a lot longer lasting barrel.

 

[benzy2]

I would suggest one of a couple options for you. If your budget is tight, a .22lr at 100-300 yards will give you a lot of experience and trigger time. A 300 yard shot with a .22lr in any sort of wind becomes a real test. If you are planning on shooting only off of a bench then I'd grab something like a Weaver fixed 24x or 36x scope for ~$350. I'd toss that on a Savage heavy barrel .22lr. As you go you can change to a better stock fairly inexpensively (Boyds) and have a decent setup. I wouldn't expect it to win any serious match, but it will certainly get you in the game. If you plan to shoot from something other than strictly on a bench, a variable powered scope in the 6.5-20x range is a good all around target range. It lets you dial down enough when you're shooting offhand to not go nuts with your wobble and lets you increase magnification when in a more stable position. Weaver, Sightron, Bushnell, Burris, Vortex, and Nikon all make reasonably priced scopes near that range. Leupold is a quality scope, but you will pay a bit of a premium to purchase one. You can certainly bump up the quality of the rifle if your budget can afford it. The Kimber 82G that the CMP was selling was a great value as well as the 40x and 52's they were selling.

If you only plan to shoot 300 yards on a budget I'd go with a .223Rem. Long barrel life, inexpensive ammo, both from the factory and in reloads. Mild recoil will help develop good form. 300 yards is well within the capabilities of the .223Rem. Service Rifle shooters tend to shoot the 69gr-75/77gr bullets at 300 yards, all of which should fit in a standard magazine, assuming the barrel twist is fast enough to stabilize them. Even the lighter stuff should shoot ok out that far. You can go for more rifle/bullet but I don't see much advantage, especially if you are on a budget.

 

[ChileRelleno]

Attend both a Appleseed Shoot and a Civilian Marksmanship Program clinic.
These two programs are designed to teach the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship and beyond.
Both are excellent programs, highly recommended and go a very long way to improving even an already average shooter's skills.

If you never seek any formal training, at least learn and use the, "Six Steps to Firing a Shot."

Schucks man, even a mediocre rifleman should be able to hit center of mass on a human sized target at 300 yards using iron sights.

 

[Photoguy]

I'd toss that on a Savage heavy barrel .22lr. As you go you can change to a better stock fairly inexpensively (Boyds) and have a decent setup.

A Savage MkII of some sort with some sort of Boyds stock (either factory or a replacement) is highly likely to be the way that I go if I decide on .22. I like the look/feel of those savages and most everything I've ever read about them is pretty positive.

 

[pikid89]

+100 on the Appleseed

I finished my 2nd one today and finally shot "Rifleman"...I went in the first time around thinking I knew how to shoot a rifle, and that opinion changed real quick
An appleseed event is one of the best places to learn rifle fundamentals that Ive ever seen

appleseedinfo.org

 

[benzy2]

They seem to shoot better than their price point suggests they should. They big down side is that the plastic stocks from the factory are junk. They raise the price quite a bit for something better. Boyds is actually the supplier of the laminate stocks so ordering one from them is a good budget option. A $200 FV with a $100 Boyds stock along with a $350 Weaver and a $30 set of burris signature zee rings is a great way to start off and will work for quite some time.

 

[TonyAngel]

I'd agree that either a Savage or Marlin bolt gun in .22 would be an excellent place to start.

Still, just keeping in mind that the OP does ultimately want to get into shooting longer distances, also consider something along the lines of a Stevens 200. Very inexpensive to get into and infinitely upgradeable.

 

[BinhThuyUSN]

Start Slow

photoguy, I started slow. I agree with the posters that said start with a good 22lr rifle and practice. After you have honed you shooting skills, then work your way up to a 223 cal and then you will have good technique to hit those 300 yard targets that you really want to shoot. If you just need a shooting fix, take the 22 and shot some targets at 100 yards. Just my 2 cents.

 

[35 Whelen]

And finally, I'm not really looking to get into the fancy high-power bullseye competition shooting either. More power to those guys, but I'm not really a competition type guy.

I've never attended an Appleseed event, but from what I've heard they are great for teaching shooting fundamentals. Problems is, how much can you realistically learn in one weekend?

I understand you not wanting to get $$$$ deep into High Power and I also understand the fact that you're not competitive. That's me to a "T".
But, I did begin attending our local High Power matches and it completely change me as a rifleman. I didn't and still don't care who I beat or who beats me. I simply set goals for myself from month to month. My rifle was/is a $140 Swiss K-31 on which I figured out how to mount a peep sight. In a little under a year, I went from a Marksman Unclassified classification to an Expert classification routinely outshooting many guys with AR's....with a $140 rifle. I was fortunate to compete against guys who were eager to help me learn and in no time I was keeping more than half of my offhand shots in a 6" circle at 100 yds, which equates to an 18" circle at 300 yds. Sitting and prone groups are much, much smaller.

One of the shooters at our matches always brings 4 or 5 rifles just in case someone shows up and wants to try High Power.

For a rifle, any bolt action or semi auto rifle on which a peep sight can be mounted will get you started. You DO NOT have to own a $2000 AR in order to learn to be a rifleman. Really, if you're young and have good eyesight, you don't even have to have a rifle with peep sights.

35W

 

[splithoof]

Start out easy: read "The Art of the Rifle" by Jeff Cooper. Get the basics down in his book, and go from there. After you get really good at everything from zero up to 300, with all distances in between, then you can find other options to stretch it out. Most decent rifles of service caliber will do just fine for this. Action type is not as important as fundamentals.

 

[Photoguy]

Really, if you're young and have good eyesight, you don't even have to have a rifle with peep sights.

For all the people who have mentioned iron sights and peep sights and whatnot, one thing worth mentioning is that I am right handed and left eyed. While it doesn't make a lot of difference in my handgun shooting, it makes iron sights somewhat unfun for anything but plinking since I either have to use my weak eye or shoot lefty cackhanded. Peep sights do help a bit with my weak eye, but not a ton. Yes, I suppose I could look into glasses. But that brings a whole new basket of annoyances into thing. And overall, my eyesight is very good. After years of using a camera day after day, my left eye is pretty strong.

So, while I agree that there is value (and fun) for many people in shooting rifles with iron sights, I'm not one of them. I just don't find it to be that enjoyable. So no matter what I shoot, it will most likely be with a scope of some sort.

 

[pikid89]

I've never attended an Appleseed event, but from what I've heard they are great for teaching shooting fundamentals. Problems is, how much can you realistically learn in one weekend?

Maybe you need to sign up for the next one...and find out really how much you WILL learn

I showed up at my first appleseed thinking that I was gonna be awesome and impress these guys, but the very first Redcoat target put me in my place and in the following 2 days, I learned a lot of great things and had a lot of fun to boot.
I didn't shoot Rifleman (Expert on the Army AQT 210/250) my first weekend (in fact i did terrible at first shooting something like 50 or 60 out of 250), but with some dry fire practice, at my 2nd appleseed, I pulled off the Rifleman score 3 times (with many more AQT's off by just a few points), and am now in the process of becoming an Orange Hat (instructor in training).

 

[gotigers]

You didn't mention SRS matches, but an AR 5.56/.223 HBAR for service rifle matches is a lot of fun.