sniper rifle vs long distance rifle

[USSR]

BTW, does anyone know what an 8541 is?

Military designation for Scout/Sniper.

A modern day sniper/tactical rifle is a precision rifle on steroids. However, most precision rifles do not have the built-in "toughness" required to be a sniper/tactical rifle.

Don

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I can offer this as an addendum to #50 above. I had a Remington VS in .308, left hand, that was tweaked a bit. Barrel set back 1/4 turn and rechambered tight, trigger adjusted, muzzle recrowned and threaded 5/5x24tpi with an M60E3 flash hider, (resembles an M16 flash hider), and had a Leupold base and Leupold 12x with mil-dots. The gun had been parkerized, and I painted the stock a crude woodland pattern. Having two other guns that I ended up shooting more, it sat in my vault. It WOULD shoot about 3/4 MOA when I did my part, but the .308 was boring (I shoot .300 Whisper and .300WM more). A post for the want of a left hand Remington PSS (which they never made)came up on the Sturmgewehr board, and I responded to the guy, telling him what I had. He and I met (he happended to be about 30 mi from where I live), and he turned out to be a US Army Special Forces reservist, that was back and forth on active duty to Afghanistan, and they were allowed to take certain personal weapons with them. I am glad that that particular gun is being used by another lefty, maybe ridding the world of unfriendly persons. At first he wasn't sure if he wanted the scope, but after shooting the gun, and having it do exactly what such a gun should be capable of, he took it as is, and didn't even have to re-zero it. I felt good about that. As said before, the Remington VSS is a great "budget", professional rifle, and can be pressed into service with little mods, literally.......

 

[driftrider]

snip·er (snī'pər)
n.
A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.
One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source

It stands to reason, then, that a "sniper rifle" is simply any rifle used by a sniper. In the history of professional military snipers, rifles of any number of types and configurations have been employed to accomplish the snipers mission based on the preferences of the sniper himself and/or the weapons and equipment available. There is no specific "form factor" that a rifle must fit in to be a sniper rifle. What matters is the training, marksmanship skill and fieldcraft of the person behind the trigger, not the rifle that he (or sometimes she) employs to carry out their craft. Our modern western concept of the sniper rifle exists only because our military and industry has the money and talent to readily equip our snipers with the finest possible weapons suited for the mission.

Mike

 

[Misstreeshot]

No, the guy was firing an Accuracy International rifle.

 

[USSR]

It stands to reason, then, that a "sniper rifle" is simply any rifle used by a sniper.

Ah, so using this logic, if Dale Earnhardt Jr. or Jeff Gordon gets into a subcompact Kia to drive home after a race, they are in fact driving a race car. Doesn't pass the smell test.

Don

 

[P.B.Walsh]

good point USSR. that being said, mabey a Sniper Rifle is build for a specific purpose.

 

[USSR]

...mabey a Sniper Rifle is build for a specific purpose.

Yep, purpose built.

Don

 

[driftrider]

If the car is being used in their professional capacity as a race car driver, then yes. I'm sure that there is a Kia racing club somewhere. The use of the rifle by a sniper in his or her professional capacity was implied, but I guess for some I need to explicitly state such things for the slower or more argumentative members among us.

So let me restate with what I said with in a clear and idiot/lawyer-proof manner...

It stands to reason, then, that a "sniper rifle" is simply any rifle used by a sniper IN HIS OR HER PROFESSIONAL CAPACITY.

Are you happy now, USSR?

 

[driftrider]

Quote:
...mabey a Sniper Rifle is build for a specific purpose.

Yep, purpose built.

Don

Ok, so as long as we're splitting hairs, then what about the countless snipers that have used plain old AK-47's as a sniper rifle (albeit a fairly short range one)? It's documented that Carlos Hathcock often used an M2 .50 cal HMG as a long range sniper rifle that was field modified to accept a 10x Unertl scope. Certainly not a purpose built weapon, but certainly a sniper rifle as applied by Gunny Hathcock.

Mike

 

[USSR]

It stands to reason, then, that a "sniper rifle" is simply any rifle used by a sniper IN HIS OR HER PROFESSIONAL CAPACITY.

Are you happy now, USSR?

Not really, just trying to show you the fallacy of your logic. Since a professional race car driver wouldn't use a KIA IN HIS OR HER PROFESSIONAL CAPACITY, and a professional sniper would not use a Model 94 Winchester IN HIS OR HER PROFESSIONAL CAPACITY, doesn't it reason that they use purpose built equipment? So, if I buy an M24 sniper rifle from Remington, which is the very same rifle that they provide to the U.S. Army (and was offered to the public at one time for about $4,000), according to your logic (since I am not a sniper), I did not buy a sniper rifle? And, if I buy (boy, I'm I rich or what) a car that was driven by the late Paul Newman at a National SCCA Race, then I (since I am not a professional race car driver) did not buy a race car?

Don

 

[MCMXI]

Yep, I agree 100% with Don on this one.

A sniper and sniper rifle are a SYSTEM just as a NASCAR driver and his/her car are a SYSTEM. Each one can exist on their own while still maintaining their identity. Each one is not only defined when it's part of a system.

Therefore, it's possible to define the features that a rifle must possess in order to qualify as a sniper rifle, just as it's possible to define a race car with no regard to who is going to drive it.

 

[driftrider]

My point was clearly that the rifle is defined by how it's used. If you bought the M24 but don't intend to shoot at people with it, then no, it's not a sniper rifle, it's simply an accurate target or hunting rifle that has been optimized for use as a snipers weapon. If you bought Paul Newman's car, but had no intention to race it, then it's really no longer a race car, is it? If a professional sniper shoots you with a Model 94 because that's what he has available to him, does that mean that the rifle is a sniper rifle, or that he's no longer a sniper?

I think that your logic is just as flawed as you think mine is. My argument is that the sniper defines the rifle, not the other way around. I wonder how many American soldiers and Marines aren't alive today to argue this point because they were killed unexpectedly by a VC sniper using an iron sighted Mosin Nagant rifle? Or how many American GI's didn't come back from Iraq or Trashcanistan because of a sniper hiding in a building armed with a plain vanilla AK-47?

Mike

 

[~z]

So if you put a sniper in a racecar...did you know racecar spelled backwards is racecar but if you spell sniper backwards it is repins...obviously this arguement holds no water
~z

 

[Reid73]

there are sniper competitions and they are extremely fun.

There are competitions between teams of actual military and police snipers (e.g., the 2009 International Sniper Competition, which will be held October 15-22 at Fort Benning). And then there are fun shoots between civilians who enjoy firing heavy-barrelled rifles at unknown ranges. The two events are similar, but not identical.

Since the people the o/p wrote about were frequenting a 100 yard civilian range and bragging about their "sniper rifles", I suspect that they were talking about the latter sort of competition.

a "sniper rifle" is simply any rifle used by a sniper. In the history of professional military snipers, rifles of any number of types and configurations have been employed to accomplish the snipers mission based on the preferences of the sniper himself and/or the weapons and equipment available. There is no specific "form factor" that a rifle must fit in to be a sniper rifle. What matters is the training, marksmanship skill and fieldcraft of the person behind the trigger, not the rifle that he (or sometimes she) employs to carry out their craft. Our modern western concept of the sniper rifle exists only because our military and industry has the money and talent to readily equip our snipers with the finest possible weapons suited for the mission.

+1.

 

[driftrider]

Therefore, it's possible to define the features that a rifle must possess in order to qualify as a sniper rifle, just as it's possible to define a race car with no regard to who is going to drive it.

But what features are really necessary to qualify as a sniper rifle or race car, or anything else for that matter? Must the rifle be scoped? Many military snipers never used optics on their rifles, but were effective nonetheless. Does it have to have a heavy barrel? The Mosin Nagant rifles have been used for the better part of a century as sniper rifles, as have the various Mauser battle rifles, none of which had anything but the standard barrel. How about a fancy composite stock in black, grey or some shade of brown, with adjustable butt plates and cheek pieces? Certainly they must be necessary for a mere rifle to be a "sniper" rifle? Oh, wait, the M40 that the Marines issue to their Scout/Snipers doesn't have all these features, so it can't be that. Maybe it has to be a bolt action rifle with a big "tactical" bolt handle? Oh, again, those Mausers and Mosins didn't have them either, and the Barrett M82 and the Dragunov SVD are semi-autos. Is it 1 MOA accuracy or better? Well, my Savage muzzleloader will shoot 1 MOA with the right bullet/powder combination, so does that make it a sniper rifle?

OK, so what, then, defines a sniper rifle? What qualities, other than it's use by a sniper for the purpose of doing his job, MUST be present to call a rifle a sniper rifle?

Oh, and the Honda Civic was never really intended to be a race car, but people race them all the time, so it stands to reason that the car is, at least while it's being raced, a race car. Or does the car HAVE to have stickers for headlights to be a race car, too?

Mike

 

[Reid73]

does the car HAVE to have stickers for headlights to be a race car, too?

While we're on the subject: what "sport" is an SUV intended to participate in?

 

[MCMXI]

But what features are really necessary to qualify as a sniper rifle? Must the rifle be scoped? Does it have to have a heavy barrel? How about a fancy composite stock. Maybe it has to be a bolt action rifle with a big "tactical" bolt handle? Is it 1 MOA accuracy or better??

OK, so what, then, defines a sniper rifle? What qualities, other than it's use by a sniper for the purpose of doing his job, MUST be present to call a rifle a sniper rifle?

Is it possible that the definition of a sniper rifle today isn't the same as it was 30, 50 or 100 years ago? Could the definition be dynamic rather than static. Heck, Pluto is no longer a planet but it was once!! Surely sniper rifles have evolved and therefore the definition has evolved too.

OK, so what, then, defines a sniper rifle? What qualities, other than it's use by a sniper for the purpose of doing his job, MUST be present to call a rifle a sniper rifle?

Perhaps all you need to do is look at offerings from companies that manufacture sniper rifles for military and police units (and civilians). I'm fairly confident that the US Army had a list of required features that had to be met before they settled on the SASS.

 

[driftrider]

Ok, but what do the Taliban snipers use? Or the Iraqi insurgents? They are modern day snipers using tech that doesn't match the U.S. Army's requirements for their issue sniper weapon, but they are effective sniper rifles nonetheless.

Mike

 

[c5_nc]

Forgeting the debate out what is a sniper rifle, what is the difference between what would make a good sniper rifle vs what would make a good benrest rifle:

Sniper/Tactical needs:

A rifle that doesn't stand out, black, camo, covered, etc not a fancy wood stock and SS barrel. Including a scope with a sunshade to prevent reflection.

Flash hiders or nothing over a brake (dust gives away position).

A caliber that is effective against people/targets/game at long range, not just paper. 6.5x, 260rem Verses 308 or above. Caliber that has off the shelf match quality ammo vs a cablier you have to/need to reload to get accuracy.

Attached bipod in some cases, sandbags work better but you need to move with the rifle.

A scope that is not just clear, but has internal elevation needed to rezero between 100-1000yds, where a benchrest gun can have a low adjustment scope on a cant base to just shoot at one range. Knobs that can reset. A scope with turn counters on knobs, targets that are easy to see/adjust, need to adjust in low light and with gloves on. Need to hear clicks in low light. Need side focust and turrent markings so you can see from rear while staying in a hide. Mildots for ranging.

Need a rugged setup.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

If I use a Remington Varmint rifle, and get up on a water tower and shoot people, does it become a sniper rifle then? What about a 40X? It normally is a TARGET rifle, but would my using it to snipe make it a sniper rifle? PS: I am not a sniper, but I play one on TV................

 

[Karl Hungus]

A rifle that doesn't stand out, black

Actually, in many many situations an all black rifle/scope stands out like a sore thumb.


...just thought I'd try my hand at nitpicking like everybody else here.

 

[Zak Smith]

To get away from a mostly pointless debate around the word "sniper", I use the terms "Practical Rifle" or "Practical Long-Range Rifle" to describe our field matches here in the Rockies region. Practical field shooting challenges, tests, or competitions can be designed to test skills that could be employed in sport, hunting, or tactical (military/police) shooting. I have had USMC and US Army Special Forces snipers (in this case their job description) say that some of our field long-range matches are "the best training [they've] ever had." I think this says a lot for the level of practical rifle shooting and practical shooting challenges coming from amateur civilian shooters.