big bore options (long with Q's)

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Ogre

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Hi
I have a hankering for a big bore rifle.
Looking for something with a .4 or larger calibre.
My post on double rifles has been a fizzer and I cannot find a greener shotgun to build a double rifle on.

I have been offered a Win 94 AE in .444 Marlin (carbine with barrel ports) for reasonable $$ but it seemed to be to easy a fix for my desire.

I want to be able to go after any CONUS game animal and KNOW if I place it right with the right type of slug etc ...I'm going to give it one hell of a whump and have better than 50% chance that it will go down. (200-220m max)
Will the 444 do this with heavy slugs?? Anyone have a 444 and would like to share their experiences with it?
OR
I have a winchester Long action 30/06 bolt face that I can use.
Would like to keep the bolt face the same so I can put the 6.5 barrel back on and make it into a 6.5x55 again after finishing playing with a big bore.
OR
Do I try and pick up a cheap magnum action and build something in the .416 or larger range on it with necked up Ultra mag cases.

Do you think a magnum action BLR can be made to cycle Ultra mag cases?? .338 Lapua cases?
Is there such thing as a 470/338 magnum?

Was the BLR ever made in long (375 H&H) magnum calibres??

Do you think rebarreling a BLR lighting from 300 win mag to 416 taylor is possible??

Suggestion, opinion, your previous experience in this area.

thanks

later
P
 
.444 might be more of an Express rifle than a heavy

In the tradition of rifle evolution the .444 although coming long after the golden age of British guns might yet be thought of as express shooting bullets light for the bore at higher velocities rather than thought of as a heavy rifle. Of course a heavy bullet in a .444 will do a fine job but there may be issues of throating and twist to go with availability.

No idea what your options are in Australia - any Siamese Mausers left around there for a .45-70 conversion?
 
I have been offered a Win 94 AE in .444 Marlin (carbine with barrel ports) for reasonable $$ but it seemed to be to easy a fix for my desire.
Click to expand...
The .444 Marlin has plenty of power and will do the job for you. Bullet construction and weight should be your only concern. If you aren't going after thick skinned creatures, standard commercial loads should get the job done as well as any caliber out there. Good luck
 
If you aren't going with the bolt gun in the "calibers for the African Big-5", then I think the levergun is a good choice. Not that the .444 is a poor choice, but if you lean in that direction, take a HARD look at the old 45-70. I think you will find a much better choice of ammo (factory and custom loaded) and more especially bullets for reloading your own. A good strong 45-70 with the correct bullets/reloads or ammo will take anything on earth-even the big african dangerous game.

Good luck with the project.
 
HI
OK three votes for the 444 and the right bullets. Probably the best most economic option.

Any opinion of the BLR - 416 taylor idea?? This one has really got me thinking and I would love to hear your thoughts on whether this would work or not?!?!?!?

thanks
later
P
 
There's a ton of good information on Marshall Stanton's 3 part article article on the .444 Marlin. Also, check out the Big-Bore Lever Guns forum on the (Bear Tooth Bullets) Shooter's Forums. There's always a lot of 444 discussion there.

I have a Marlin 444P Outfitter with the factory muzzle break. I just bought it and am still getting used to shooting it. I installed XS ghost ring sights and will be hunting deer this November.

Marshall Stanton has a tremendous amount of knowledge regarding the 444M and he's been very helpful answering my posts and e-mails.
 
The BLR has "only" been made long enough for the so-called short magnums, which are intended for 30-06 length actions.
That said, the .458 Win Mag was designed for 30-06 length actions. With enough money thrown at it, somebody might be able to make a .458 BLR.

I don't know for certain, but I'm thinking the 450 Alaskan might be close to the 458. That's if you want something different, but still a good round. It, and the 50 Alaskan are probably the kings of the lever-action hill.

I recall a Guns & Ammo article from the mid-70's (when the articles had at least some technical info) about converting a Browning BAR to .458 Mag. It was by either Howard French, or Jack Lott, I think. Anything is possible with enough money.

As I recall, the limiting factor of the .444 is the slow rifling twist (1-38?) most makers use, which is marginal for heavier bullets.
As already stated, I'd consider the 45-70.

The 45-70 offers a variety of rifles and actions. There is plenty of data. The brass is one of the more available of the really big bores, and relatively inexpensive.
I had a Marlin 1895 that was a good shooting rifle. The only downside to the 1895 is that you are limited to cartidge length. Some of the heavier (450 grains +) bullets may not be able to be seated deep enough to keep the length short enough. But the 405 grain bullets should really be plenty for all but the biggest dinosaurs.
I only traded mine away because I had two .375 H&Hs, and one big rifle was already too many, really, let alone three.
 
I don't want to knock the 444 Marlin because I think it's an excellent close range gun, maybe out to 150 meters. I'm sure there are those that can shoot it farther but with a 200 yard zero the Remington 240 SP load is 4.7" high at 100 and 23.4" low at 300. That folks, is what we call a trajectory.

In a BLR I have heard of people building 375 and 416 Taylors although I haven't tried it myself (I've got BAR's in 270 and 30-06). I'll try to find the link where it was done.

If you think you are going to shoot consistantly out to 200 meters or so I would have thought you would be better served with a 45-70 shooting some of the hotter loads now available, they aren't a huge amount better in trajectory but maybe enough to make me comfortable with them.

But for very little more money you could just buy a Charles Daly or CZ in 458 Win Mag. and be done with it. I got a 458 last year, new, built on a Daly Mauser action with Boyds JRS laminate stock, Douglas barrel, barrel band and sights for $600 last year. The only thing that's really better than a standard Daly model is the barrel band, sights, extra recoil lug (probably not needed) and bedding.
 
Within CONUS they ain't much the '06 won't take. Heck with proper placement the .260 Rem or 6.5mm Swede will take anything in the CONUS. Wouldn't want to depend on those .264's to stop a charging griz but if you maintain enough distance (but not too much) they'll do the job just fine.

In that sense, any of the big bores should also work just fine. The .45/70, due its ballistics won't really get you any more range than an '06, or even the .264's (due to energy). 200-220 meters is getting out there for the 45/70 as it's really dropping fast by that time. The 405 grain load (at a MV of 1330fps) has a drop of 23" at 200 yards if zero'd to take advantage of its 131 yard MPBR. The .416 Rigby is a much better choice for that kind of range as it's just re-crossed the zero at 200 yards when sighted to use it's 231 yard MPBR.

If you want a big bore, go for it. Far be it from me to disuade anybody from buying a gun that they want. Just find the one that's most comfortable for you to shoot and don't worry about the specific caliber as all of those big bores will get the job done, assuming proper shot placement, with room to spare. I'd just caution you to look carefully at the ranges you expect to be taking shots at and use that as a guide to discriminate between calibers.
 
The .444 or the .45-70 will easily take anything in the US. There is also the option of certain gunsmiths taking O/U shotguns and building a set of rifle barrels onto the frames.

As has also been said the 30.06 will do it all also if the game is hit right. I took a Ruger #1 rifle to Africa in .338 WM and didn't feel under gunned for anything I took up to 700pounds. It would be considered light for buff or eland but it will and has done the job before for prior hunters in Africa.

Anything in the .30 caliber on up range in magnums would be sufficient for any north American game.
 
If you happen to have an IZH sxs in 20 ga (I think) IZH makes 45/70 inserts for it. Not sure if that's a fit but it might be like shooting a double rifle w/o the cost of buying the real thing assuming you can regualate the strike of the bullets. You can have a look at them on the European American Arms (USA) website.

I think IZH made some double rifles but I have no idea if the quality is good bad or indifferent.

S-
 
What would be wrong with a CZ 550 in 416 Rigby 458 Win Mag or 458 Lott?
About $650 (or the cost to rebarrel and restock a cheap rifle) and you will have a proven gifle that will accept even larger cartridges should you ever feel the need.

Remember rifles are an integrated system. When you increase the cartridge you need to make sure the stock, mounts and optics are up to snuff. If you don't, you will learn of their shortcomings in short order.

Making a BAR or BLR feed a bigger round might be possible, but I think you will run into trouble after .375" on a short magnum case. The stock is another limiting factor. I think it would be impractical to go larger unless you have unlimited resources.

The 470/338 win would be a staight case, easier to make from 458 win mag and would have major feeding issues in a Browning. A 475/338 lapua would work in a bolt gun.

You could also try my pet project, the 429 BOSS. I think 300grn 44 magnum bulets at 3000 fps. You would have the first on ever built, because I and going to have my shoulder worked on.


If you want to build REALLY huge, I have an enfield collecting dust that I'm not going to use...

You reload right?

David
 
HI
Yes I reload. (223, 6ppc, 6.5x55, 30/06, 300 weatherby)

The Weatherby and 180 fail safes can handle anything on AUS or CONUS (maybe Africa except buff and elephant) but thats not the point.
The 300 weatherby is not really a big bore in the old fashioned sense of the word. (double rifle days)
As I cannot afford a double rifle in 450 or 470 nitro express, I am looking at the next best option to be able to get a fast follow up shot.
Hence the LA or maybe a 7600 pump action.

I thought the 416 Taylor was the same size/length as the 338 win mag just a larger calibre? Is this correct??

Was the 7600 pump ever made in a magnum calibre??

I am looking to cast some practice projectiles myself.
Can some one point me to some URLs that explain how to cast your own. I have searched yahoo on the subject but keep getting a lot about casting but not about casting bullets. Is there a generic term that will narrow the search down a bit.

I have looked at the EAA site and have asked the local shop when they will be available???!!!??? Should be soon was the best I could get out of them.
Does anyone have any experience with the SBS in 45/70?? anyone tried to ream the chambers out to a 450 nitro? ( or something similar)

thanks

later
P
 
As far as I know, the 7600 (or 760, model 6, etc) has never been made in a Mag caliber.
But they have been made in .35 Whelen. That's not quite a big bore, but it's getting there.
There was article in Rifle magazine 10-15 years ago about making a 7600 into a .338-06. At the time, the .35 Whelen wasn't being made yet. As I recall, the 7600 was limited in bore size by clearances with the slide mechanism, and barrel thread size.
 
Litefoot, this forum is dedicated to all things rifle. Whether you're talking hunting, self-defense, military, whatever, it fits here. Some quesations specifically related to particular hunting applications of rifles fit better in the hunting forum, but this is not a self-defense only rifle forum.
 
A lever action choice that might work for you is the 1886 Winchester repo's that are still floating around. You can get one in 45-70 and convert it to
45-90 or 50-110 Win. Loaded to pressures suitable for this action the 50-110 is a potent round. It should run a bullet of 475-500 grains close to 2100fps. Check out Turnbull Restorations for the conversion.


David
 
Sumpnz,
Almost 66% of the posts in Rifle Country are non-hunting related. Most who come here seem to be interested more in military-style/SD rifles. There are other forums that are almost 100% devoted to hunting rifles, big bores and/or double rifles.

You obviously, based on your earlier post , have some knowledge of hunting rifles. That's good. But there are many very knowledge hunters out there that will never see Ogre's question because they never visit here. They hang elsewhere. So I suggested an altrenative site. Not sure why that would upset you.
 
Not sure why that would upset you.
Click to expand...
It didn't.

Maybe I just pay more attention to hunting rifle questions, but I seemed to have the impression that there was plenty of discussion of such to warrant having this thread in this forum.
There are other forums that are almost 100% devoted to hunting rifles, big bores and/or double rifles.
Click to expand...
Yes, and maybe this would be a better fit in those forums. I'll concede that point.
 
Sheesh noone suggested the 1895 Winchester in .405? (yes, they still make 'em)

I'd be leary of the .444, as it really doesn't do anything a 45/70 can't and the ammo costs more.

A CZ in 416 is a very affordable, but overkill for any north american game that isn't a Kodiak bear.

PS Two of us mods do a lot of hunting. I know a lot more about hunting rifles than military ones.
 
Hi
"Sheesh noone suggested the 1895 Winchester in .405?" ????:confused:

please explain

I am interested.

Doing a google search after posting this reply

later
P
 
That'd be the Model 1895 Winchester levergun that's got an integral single-stack box magazine rather than a tubular under-barrel rig. It was Winchester's attempt to break into the military boltgun bracket, (The box mag allowed for pointed spitzer bullets, and the guns usually had a charger bridge at the top of the receiver for stripper clips.) which it didn't really succeed at doing. Russia bought some 5000 or so in musket form for troop trials, but went with the Mosin Nagant. No other sales beyond a few test samples went to any military service.

M- 95's were chambered in .30-40 Krag, .30-06, 7.62 x 54r, and of course the .405 Winchester, which drove a typically 250-grain bullet up to about 2000 fps, IIRC. Not bad, but not spectacular, and easily surpassed.

The only M-95's to be had now are either vintage originals, (Mucho $$$, and scarce.) or the recently released limited-edition replicas by (Dang it, I can't remember! Well-made, though. Browning?) which are ALSO rare and expensive, but a bit more findable than a nice vintage gun, and they're new-ish. They're also out of production at this time, I believe.

M-95's as an action design aren't anything really great. They have a sight mounted on top of the rear-locking, rather skinny breechblock that locks into an expensive-to-make fully machined receiver with relatively thin sides, gaining these guns a reputation for probematical repeat accuraccy under the stress of high-intensity, flat-shooting military loads the gun was chambered for. This did not encourage sales, although I don't know how much of an issue that might be with the milder-loaded .405.

M-95's look pretty neat with their distinctive profile, but if you could affford on of those, you could probably just as well look at the M-71 Winchester chambered for .348 Winchester. This gun is the last version of the hell-for-stout Winchester 1886 action, and it's only available chambered for the mighty .348 Winchester, which is based on a necked-down, slightly modified .45-70 case running at a much higher pressure than the old Goverment round. The .348 usually runs a 250-grain bullet out at about 2400 fps IIRC. However, where the M-71 REALLY starts to shine is when you neck the .348 up to .45 caliber, or even .50 caliber, creating the .450 and .50 Alaskan cartridges, respectively. These are both serious thumpers at both ends of the rifle, moving heavy-for-caliber bullets out at velocity comparable to the original .348. Both rounds are custom propositions, but M-71's, like the M-95, enjoyed a limited prodution run originally, and a limited-release "official Factory-authorized" replica run, making them tricky to track down and expensive, but well worth the price as one of the most powerful and refined lever-actions that Winchester ever brought out.
 
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