Big cartridge, small powder fill, tip gun before firing?

[lezmark]

Just loaded up some 45-70 for my Contender. Boy, 28 grains of 2400 doesnt fill the cartridge much! Just wondering if it makes a difference and whether I should tip the gun back so the powder is all up against the primer before firing. Thoughts?

 

[edwardware]

Yes, it matters.

With an optimized primer and powder, it can matter very very little, but it always matters.

My guess is that with 2400 (not exactly a fast powder) in .45/70 (a huge salad bowl of a case), and a non-magnum primer, you could measure increased velocity dispersion if you don't tip the powder back against the flash hole.

 

[mdi]

I don't reload any cartridges as big as the 45-70 with fast powders, but I have loaded a bunch of 44 Magnums with Bullseye. I read about tilting the gun when using small charges in large cases but most of my experience was pre-chrony. I was doing a lot of shooting indoors and my Bullseye loads were just as accurate, clean shooting, and equal recoil no matter what position the gun was pre firing. It may make a difference, but for me being an average Joe shooter, not enough to worry about

 

[Slamfire]

Go buy AA5744 and stop messing around with other powders. I really don't know why anyone uses any other powder than AA5744 in these big, low pressure cases. According to Accurate Arms, this powder was developed for the 45/120 case, I think they found an existing powder and it worked well, regardless of advertising hype.


You can see the velocities I measured during load testing and in several other 45/70 rifles.


45/70 Martini Henry 26" Shilen Barrel

405 LRN 26.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR                                                      
29-Apr-04                 T = 80 °F    

Ave Vel =                1294                                                                            
Std Dev =                14                                                                              
ES =                        40                                                                               
Low =                      1274                                                                            
High =                     1314                                                                            
N =                          15                                                                              

Group Size Very . good


                                                                                                                  


405 LRN 27.0gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR                                                      
24-Mar-04  T = 70 °F
                                                                             

Ave Vel =                1284                                                                            
Std Dev =                23                                                                              
ES =                        80                                                                               
Low =                      1263                                                                            
High =                     1343                                                                            
N =                          12                                                                              


405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR                                                      
15-Apr-05    T = 75 °F

Ave Vel =                1363                                                                            
Std Dev =                25                                                                              
ES =                        97                                                                               
Low =                      1298                                                                            
High =                     1395                                                                            
N =                          20

Winchester BPCR M1885 30" Badger barrel

Ladder Sights: 5 graduations per 1/4 inch major.
1/4 inch major is 25 MOA, 1 grad is 5 MOA, 1 Vernier is 1 MOA

405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085"
29 May 2010 T = 89 °F

Ave Vel = 1324
Std Dev = 9
ES = 26
High = 1338
Low = 1312
N = 6

 

[mcb]

If the position of the powder in the case matters than I would argue you're probably better off selecting another powder. Unless its strictly a target load your not always going be able to make sure the charge is were you need it.

 

[Blue68f100]

That case hardening sure makes for a pretty gun.

Yes it can make a difference. If you have a crony test for your self. Barrel up, Barrel down.

 

[Bartojc]

If the position of the powder in the case matters than I would argue you're probably better off selecting another powder. Unless its strictly a target load your not always going be able to make sure the charge is were you need it.

I would agree. Unfortunately in the world we are living in today though sometimes you just cannot get an optimal powder to try so you are left with what you have on hand.

-Jeff

 

[lezmark]

I have lot of trail boss, I KNOW that will fill up the case a lot more!

 

[mcb]

I would agree. Unfortunately in the world we are living in today though sometimes you just cannot get an optimal powder to try so you are left with what you have on hand.

-Jeff

Unfortunately, you are correct.

 

[denton]

Some powders are position sensitive, and some are not. I tested several, but can't seem to locate my notes. TiteGroup is one that sticks in my mind as being not position sensitive. If my memory serves correctly, Universal is also not sensitive.

Less than half full cases can be a problem. When Brownell was doing his pressure factors research, a graduate assistant managed to get a bullet stuck halfway down the barrel of a 30-06. He put a bit of powder in a primed case to push it out, and it blew up the rifle.

 

[Walkalong]

Go buy AA5744 and stop messing around with other powders.

Yep

 

[George P]

Or, you go buy some dacron filler at the crafts store and place it on top of your powder charge so it keeps it against the primer

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

If the position of the powder in the case matters than I would argue you're probably better off selecting another powder.

That pretty much says it. You've got a couple of choices: trade for a more appropriate powder or don't worry about trying to get maximum consistency. For plinking, the powder position will make a difference but not enough to worry about. Probably also true for hunting, depending on your game and range. For practical competition targets???? Beats me. I'm not a good enough shot anymore to know the difference.

 

[.38 Special]

I've never been sure that raising the barrel accomplishes anything. It seems to me that once you've lowered the barrel back down, the powder is going to go right back where it was. I've known of loads that perform one way when fired with the barrel up and another way when pointed down, but...

In my experience 2400 is okay with heavy cast bullets in big cases, but I don't like it with light jacketed bullets. I've never experienced bloopers or hangfires with that powder in the 45-70, but with the light bullets it's very dirty and velocities are all over the map.

 

[Airborne Falcon]

Or, you go buy some dacron filler at the crafts store and place it on top of your powder charge so it keeps it against the primer

I've always wondered if that is simply rural myth or if it is in fact .... factual.

I've heard of guys using single sheets of toilet paper on top of the charge in 30-06 loads .... but I've always been told dacron is an iffy practice (because of barrel ringing).

I wanna say Johnny's Reloading Bench did some tests - I forget which caliber - but he did confirm difference ballistics out of different cartridges based solely upon if the charge had been tipped forward or rearward inside the case.

I know for a fact the guys over at Cast Boolits have been debating the dacron thing for 20 years ... something to do with it compacting at the bottom of the projectile and acting like a wad or buffer upon ignition, hitting the bottom of the bullet Caused some major problem. And dacron must not be used in necked down cartridges because it bottlenecks in the throat and can cause all kinds of serious problems especially in 30-30.

Now, I use TP, plain and simple. I have a wooden dowel that I tamp with ... there are tampers and there are fluffers. Some will claim TP causes a fire hazzard .... I've never had a problem with that.

I've been a member over at Cast Boolits longer than I have here and I remember tons of discussions about this very subject over there with some of the guys doing actual tests ... I just cannot remember if they ever reached a mutually agreed-upon conclusion. Seems like it was always 2400 and 45-70 too. One of life's mysteries I guess.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I've always wondered if that is simply rural myth or if it is in fact .... factual.

I've heard of guys using single sheets of toilet paper on top of the charge in 30-06 loads .... but I've always been told dacron is an iffy practice (because of barrel ringing).

I wanna say Johnny's Reloading Bench did some tests - I forget which caliber - but he did confirm difference ballistics out of different cartridges based solely upon if the charge had been tipped forward or rearward inside the case.

I know for a fact the guys over at Cast Boolits have been debating the dacron thing for 20 years ... something to do with it compacting at the bottom of the projectile and acting like a wad or buffer upon ignition, hitting the bottom of the bullet Caused some major problem. And dacron must not be used in necked down cartridges because it bottlenecks in the throat and can cause all kinds of serious problems especially in 30-30.

Now, I use TP, plain and simple. I have a wooden dowel that I tamp with ... there are tampers and there are fluffers. Some will claim TP causes a fire hazzard .... I've never had a problem with that.

I've been a member over at Cast Boolits longer than I have here and I remember tons of discussions about this very subject over there with some of the guys doing actual tests ... I just cannot remember if they ever reached a mutually agreed-upon conclusion. Seems like it was always 2400 and 45-70 too. One of life's mysteries I guess.

And of course, when discussing wads, fillers, and over-powder cards, EVERYTHING changes when the discussion moves from smokeless to black powders.

 

[Walkalong]

I tried wads, fillers etc, but never had great luck with them, and certainly not enough to go trough the trouble.

When shooting my .38 Spl at 300 yards I had to raise the barrel and then lower it slowly to level to get more consistent shots.

When I started testing powders back against the primer vs forward against the bullet it became very apparent why. Some
powders are worse than others. Later I started testing powder level as well. Some powders like that, and do just as well as PB,
even better sometimes.

I learned which powders did well (Not losing a lot of velocity) powder forward, and chose powders that could also give me accuracy to go with it.

These targets were shot with .38 Spl Load # 82 & Load # 107. 18 shots each, 6 powder back, 6 powder forward, and 6 powder level. At least up close accuracy was good and to the same point of impact, and the PBF & PL numbers were good compared to the PB numbers.


The original test of #82 was in 2011 @ 90ish degrees for an average 739 powder back and 741 powder forward.

The original test of #107 was 2013 at 74 degrees for an average 787 powder back and 788 powder forward.

That day of the target #107 was 815 PB, 790 PF, & 809 PL @ 47 degrees.

These are outstanding PB & PL numbers by the way.

 

[Walkalong]

12 shots of .45 Colt, six PB, six PF. S&W 25-5

 

[Walkalong]

A good one, the previously mentioned Load # 82.


A bad one. Crap PF & PL numbers.

 

[Walkalong]

A really bad one. Half of those guns are gone.

 

[Walkalong]

So, Trail Boss and lead or coated lead,

or AA 5744 (Like @Slamfire mentioned.)

I have three power levels for my .458 Win Mag.

Trail Boss.
AA 5744
Take your pick of H-322 etc, etc, I'm using H-322 because I have lots of it.

 

[Charlie98]

Go buy AA5744 and stop messing around with other powders.

I agree with Slamfire... sort of. I agree that it is a wiser choice to find the right powder for the job, I don't agree that it's only AA5744... there are other powders like IMR/H4198, even RL7 or, as Walk mentions... H322... that work just as well, all things considered. That's my .02 worth on that.

I've always wondered if that is simply rural myth or if it is in fact .... factual.

I have a lot of friends that shoot the big .45's, some shoot the holy Black, some... like me... smokeless. Everyone has their favorite loads, many of them swear by 2400 and Unique (and other powders like TrailBoss and RedDot, but I am not familiar with them in that capacity.) I've tried them, and while they work, I don't like to tempt fate... so I just use IMR or H4198 and call it a day. One of the 'classic' loads is 15grn Unique under a 405grn cast bullet.... it's good for around 1200fps out of any rifle. Some guys put Dacron on top, some guys put TP on top, I've even heard of Cream of Wheat on top as a filler... and some just 'muzzle up' and shoot it without filler. I have witnessed... I was standing right there... 15grn Unique with no filler blow the case head out on a single-shot rifle. There is debate about weather or not it was a 'detonation' or simply a weak case, or some other freak of reloading. Even the shooter doesn't know... and we all talked about it after it happened (and after he got back from the hospital, where a surgeon had to pull shards of brass out of his eye.) I have loaded the 15grn Unique load... I always 'muzzle up'ed' it before I fired, and never had problems. Same same with 2400... 20grn 2400 under a cast 385 was the recommendation from the previous owner I bought my 1885 from. It worked well enough, for sure, but I was not comfortable with all that air space in the case... just like the Unique load. As was said, however, these days you run what you got.

As far as fillers... the only time I've heard of ringing a barrel with a 'filler' is when a rigid wad is used... I don't know that I've ever heard of it with Dacron or other soft fill. I don't visit Cast Boolits much... so I've not seen the posts there about it... I may be all wet on that.

 

[Airborne Falcon]

Charlie .... I actually know a well-known moderator over on Cast Boolits, lives not far from me, who swears by Rice Krispies as a case filler and, according to him, every time he pulls the trigger it smells like cookies baking.

 

[George P]

Charlie .... I actually know a well-known moderator over on Cast Boolits, lives not far from me, who swears by Rice Krispies as a case filler and, according to him, every time he pulls the trigger it smells like cookies baking.

Honey Nut Cheerios smell better to me