Big Gun Safe vs Steel Vault Door in Concrete room?

[folsoh]

I just have a question and I would like as many opinions as possible.

I will in less than two weeks be moving to a house with a large basement. This house is six years old and has not had any issues with any basement leaking.

In the Basement is a large 6 x 10 concrete vault room under the front porch of the home. The walls and roof in addition to being solid concrete are also timber framed for later completion. The doorway is also framed in 2x 10 lumber. There is also a light in the room.

I have seen these rooms in my area finished out and framed wall in old barn wood with shelves and built in gun racks. They also use old rusted tin for the roof in these rooms. It makes a very impressive gun room that is still accessible in the event of an emergency and can be used as a safe room. A lot of people put a huge steel vault door on these to seal them off. The door is almost like the door of a gun safe.

So I have a lot of guns and thus far I have only used two green Sentinel gun cabinets that you commonly buy from Walmart or Bass Pro. The kind that can be accessed with a screw driver or butter knife in about 60 seconds. They were just really to keep my kids (ages 4/1) away from the guns.

My other option is to buy a large gun safe and just use that instead. Gun safe's are fire rated and are still harder to get into that this home made vault room would be. I have never owned a big gun safe. Most people I know who own one its never locked to be honest.

I don't like the idea of not being able to see my guns or having to cram them in a gun safe but I want them to be safe from thieves and my kids.

SO a good gun safe cost as much as finishing the vault room. Which Would you choose and why???????

Also I have a very large stock pile of ammo like 25k plus rounds that I will also need to store. I could store it all in the gun vault room or use my old gun cabinets just to store ammo if I purchased a big gun safe. Thanks for any comments or suggestions.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I'm really envious, because that sounds like a highly useful space to have.

I guess if it were me, I'd go the vault door route. It'll be a lot better use of space, and then you can simply put the gun cabinets in the room. If you hang your long guns on the walls you will open up a lot of room for pistols in the cabinets, and could perhaps fill one of them with your ammo.

If you just put a big safe in there you will just be eating up a huge amount of room with a big box essentially. With a vault you may have the option to set up a work/cleaning station too.

If money was no object for me, Id finish the room, put in a vault door, and then build a fake wall with a hidden door to block off the entire thing. Hell putting a bookshelf in front of a flush fitting door may be all you need to keep a burglar from finding it. Make it a reinforced door too, so it's another barrier. Then put a smallish safe in the same room on the opposite wall to divert attention from the fake wall, but only keep mildly valuable items in it.

Usually money is an object though, so vault door gets my vote. It would also provide excellent shelter for you and your family in the event of a tornado. It would take up space, but that may be a very good reason for you to have the door open inward, so if debris fell up against the door, you weren't trapped with a very limited air supply, and panicked people sucking up all the air.

 

[hso]

Gun safe's are fire rated and are still harder to get into that this home made vault room would be.

Not if you finish the vault room properly. Read through the vault vs. safe threads here and you'll see the 2 professionals explain that a properly constructed vault is far superior to a safe, more fire resistant, provides security for the family AND improves the value of the home.

While it may be appealing to turn your vault into some sort of display it should be avoided since it interferes with the ability to store firearms free of rust.

Save the decorating for the space outside the vault and focus on temp/humidity control in the vault.

 

[rubicon923]

You don't say how substantial the concrete ceiling and walls are. If they're very substantial (such as 10-12" of reinforced concrete) then a vault door makes sense. If the walls are significantly less substantial, they will be the weak link and I would go the cheaper route of a heavy duty, metal utility door.

A secure vault room has several advantages over a gun safe: can function as a safe room and more storage space for guns, ammo, and preps.

The only advantages that a gun safe would have is better climate control and you can take it with you if you move.

Since you already have the vault room, I would try to make that option work.

All of these options and more are explored in Joel Skousen's excellent book, The Fortified Home.

 

[X-Rap]

That's good advise about the room, I'd also add a residential safe to the interior that was bolted down to a raised concrete pedestal as well as an automatic sump pump and a dehumidifier unless your in a very arid part of the country.
Keep the room simple with gun/ammo storage, reloading/work bench, and possibly some basic emergency supplies but I would under no circumstances create some sort of display/show room there. Limited eyes and access is as important for security as steel doors.

 

[hso]

It is usually recommended to modify a room that isn't on a pedestal to begin with so water has to be at least 4" deep outside the room before reaching the lip of the vault door.

 

[X-Rap]

It is usually recommended to modify a room that isn't on a pedestal to begin with so water has to be at least 4" deep outside the room before reaching the lip of the vault door.

I find your statement confusing, you want your guns on an elevated pad above the general floor elevation, in an existing room the simplest fix is to form up a pad similar in size to the gun cabinet/safe rather than doing the whole floor and changing the ceiling clearance height.

 

[Sunray]

Teach your kids to leave daddy's toys alone. Making 'em a big secret is a kid magnet.
A regular, lockable, steel, door on the gun room is enough deterrent for a thief. Anything else is really not necessary. Breaking into a locked room is too much like work for most thieves. If a thief has the time to roam around the house, your alarm system is broken.

 

[X-Rap]

A regular, lockable, steel, door on the gun room is enough deterrent for a thief.

Until it isn't
I'd agree with your statement so long as behind that door are gunsafes bolted to the floor and wall to add another layer of security. I'd also promote concealing the steel door in some manor.
I'd also replace regular with industrial/commercial and use multiple deadbolt locks, top bottom and the usual center mountings.

 

[1KPerDay]

Vault door. Every time.

 

[folsoh]

thanks for comments

Thanks for all the comments. I am going to try and get electricity in there to make an outlet for a dehumidifier. I will have to check on that after I move in. I know that right now there is not a door of any kind on the room which probably keeps the moisture hidden but once I seal that up with a door it will probably draw moisture and smell musty I presume.

 

[zb338]

My Son has the steel door in a specially built cement room.
He has had it for many years. It's never had any water
problems and he has never done any water prevention. It's
probably 20 years old and a much nicer way to store guns
than a safe. Although I don't know about fire. He has never
had a fire.

 

[cdk8]

The price of making a vault room with the performance abilities that can match a high security safe will be many times that of a used high security safe. Further, safes with UL fire protection are subjected to multiple tests of different types, which is not possible with a vault room. Consequently, the fire protection is not a certainty. Even if the vault door has a specific rating, there is no way to guarantee how the room will perform as a whole. I'm also not sure how insurance binders that either mandate use or get a discount from the use of a safe work with a fortified room?

So, in my opinion, you should purchase a true security safe.

If you are looking for true burglary protection, do not buy a gun safe and do not buy any safe that measures its armor in gauge. A 10 gauge side wall provides moral support and an unknown level of deterrence.

If you are looking for serious fire protection, be very careful when purchasing a safe that has a fire rating from a company other than the UL. Outside companies tend to test at lower temperatures for longer durations than UL testing, and consequently many of these safes appear to give more fire protection than they may actually provide. For example, one company certifies safes with a "2 hour fire rating," and quite a few gun safe makers heavily advertise upon this...however, the test temp is often 1100-1200F. House fires can sometimes get hotter than this. By comparison to UL standards, for a safe to earn a UL 2 hour fire rating, that test temp must be 1850F.

If you are set on a new safe, the Brown HD is one of the best values on the market, IMO. The "entry level" armor for the HD is TL-15. The overall quality is outstanding, especially considering one can get a 20 cubic foot model for little over 4k. AmSec's AMVAULT is available in both TL-15 and TL-30 versions and is also a reasonably priced high security safe. With that said, you can often find good quality used security safes for half the price or less. These safes would not have much in the cosmetics department, and would likely benefit from a DIY job to customize the inside for firearm storage, but these safes excel at performing the two primary functions of a safe.

 

[CB900F]

Folsoh;

Your initial post indicates two weak points existing within the present construction of the room. If the door frame is lumber, it should be removed because: A. If the house fire is hot enough, that wood will ignite possibly allowing the door to totally fail to protect. B. A door anchored in wood is in reality no stronger than that wood. Should you decide to go with a vault door, it should be anchored in the concrete. That's not a big problem to a professional installer. What may be necessary is a vault door made to dimension to meet your exact needs. That can also be done, Graffunder is a very reputable manufacturer who can do it, and their doors are easier to concrete mount than others I could name.

Then, if there is electricity in the room at this time, then there's also very probably a fire path into the room. Electrical conduit is a fire path. Which is not to say that flame is going to travel the entire length, but the corrosive gasses can. Depending on the construction and situation, it is possible that the flame could also, but that's a lot more unlikely. I've seen what the gasses from a fire can do to stamps, photos, coins, and scope coatings. It's not a good thing, and no doubt about it.

If there is a home fire, and depending on fuel and conditions such as wind, the temps can reach or surpass 2000 degrees f, according to the Great Falls Montana professional fire department, you'll want a way to prevent water accumulation in the vault room. That can be done, but will also require some further construction in the basement.

Please feel free to PM me if you need to go further with this.

900F

 

[Chuck R.]

A friend of mine went this route, while I had a safe room installed under my 3 car garage (30'x24'), both have their pluses and minuses. Big minus for the safe room under the garage is cost, but the plus is about 650' of area.

One thing he failed to think of was a drain for his dehumidifier, and his under the porch vault does get quite humid due to the exposed concrete roof. I'd think you could solve most of this with insulation as I did in my safe room. But he does have to dump his dehumidifier bucket pretty frequently whereas mine just pumps to a drain.

The route I've taken for fire etc. is a safe within the vault. So I've got a room made of 10" reinforced concrete, in-swing door with S&G mechanical dial, and the more expensive guns/stuff remain within a fire proof safe. I've also added the room to my alarm system using a motion detection sensor.

Chuck

 

[lightman]

I like the vault door, since you have the room already. If cost is an issue for finishing the room, you can do it a little at a time. Buy and install the door, build a gun rack inside and complete the room when you are able.

 

[entropy]

I find your statement confusing, you want your guns on an elevated pad above the general floor elevation, in an existing room the simplest fix is to form up a pad similar in size to the gun cabinet/safe rather than doing the whole floor and changing the ceiling clearance height.

Just put a concrete ledge on the floor on whichever side the door doesn't swing to. Same effect, and easy to do. You can set the height easily; you just have to remember to step over it on the way in & out. A couple stubbed toes should be a sufficient reminder...

 

[MDof2]

Without question, vault door.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

I went with the vault door. I have a large gun collection and was sick of buying safes. When my wife and I built our house we had a room similar to yours poured. I still have 2 large safes in my "gun room," One for my NFA items and one for important paperwork, coins and jewelry. We just moved in at the end of Sept so I haven't finished building shelves or anything yet. I have put down a hardwood floor in it and ran additional outlets. A good dehumidifier is key!!!