walk in vault possible in an exsisting house?

[thefamcnaj]

Sorry to the mods if this thread isn't in the right place.
I moved into my home about 4 years ago before I was bitten by the gun/ammo bug. So when I was new into I bout a tin lock box called a centurion by liberty. I know longer feel this is adequate, so I started researching real safes. I talked with Frank(sorry I don't remember his thr name, he's used his real name before on here so...) and he's a great guy and patiently help guide me towards what a real safe was as opposed to an RSC. I had decided on the amsec tl30 gun safe. It is pricey, but thats ok because its worth the peace of mind. After getting some quotes and talking with my wife, we thought of a walk in vault. A big gun safe isn't big enough because she has some really centimental things that belonged to her mother, who has passed which mean more to her than any of my guns do to me. So with her wanting those things in safe keeping a safe would over flow quickly.
I've read all the threads I could find here on thr concernig walk in vaults. They were all dealing with new construction of a house which doesn't help me much. My home is just a regular 1 story house in a crowded housing developmeant. Its on a concrete slab and no basement. We do have a walk in closet but its full of all her goodies ie hand bags and shoes:banghead:
No rooms in the house are suitable because all rooms have windows.
I have a double car garage to work with or a 10x10 room that currently serves as my man cave so to speak.
I would like it to double as a storm shelter(as my wife and 2 kids are terrified of sever weather) and I checked fema's site and sports man steel safes site. The fema thing didn't seem to offer fire or security benefits and I've read complete horror stories on sportsman steel. Also I checked another sites "modular vaults".
Have any of you guys put a walk in vault in an already built house? Is it even practical? I haven't contacted a contractor or anything as I don't won't to ask for a "gun vault" may raise eyebrows, I don't know.
If you guys think its impracticle then I'll get the amsec and try and find a way to disguise it in the house and use the tin can as a dummy safe.

 

[CapnMac]

I've done a share of design work, but the money has never come through to get one built.

Learned some things, though.

Have a plan, in advance for the joint at the walls and ceiling. This is often the weakest/most over-looked area in both storm, fire, and theft protection.

Put some thought into the joint between wall and floor, too. Less of a theft risk, but a vulnerable spot for sire and storm damage (if it's blowing a gale outside, that's a bad time to learn water is filling up in your storm shelter from under walls or around the door).

The door will be a pain.

What is wanted is a fire-rated door. This generally means needing a door, and jambs, sill, and head, that do not match the rest of the house. This is even tougher if you need a metal frame and metal door to achieve the protection level you want. (Refitting the entire house in knock-down metal door frames gets to be a pain--but, all the door trim will match.)

The other detail is on the door knob. Matching the existing with a new, keyed lockset is a pain. And a new one will stand out, too. Doing some applied trim to mock panels can help you sneak a couple deadbolts into the door (12" from top & bottom of the door).

For "silver closets" I've specified gutting to bare studs. Followed by filling the voids solid in rock wool insulation, or, better yet, fire-resistant closed-cell foam. Use blocking in the ceiling area to bring the "outside" up to the top of the ceiling joists. Then, two layers of 5/8" cementitious wallboard, fire caulked and taped each. Ceiling to match, and no through-and-through penetrations. Lights and other fixtures are surface mounted. Door to be a solid core, and using pinned hinges.

Everything else in the silver closet is easy. But the silvercloth on homesote or flakboard cut to fit the shelf standards on the walls.

Oh, and in closet-sized evolutions, rope lighting is your friend. It's not a huge heat source, and will wind around as needed to all sorts of places.

In your specific case, consider a room-within-a-room. Use the halls created to display artwork, build-in bookcases, and the like.

 

[thefamcnaj]

I live in an open floor plan. No halls at all. The garage doesn't seem like it would be a good idea as there can be no disguising whats out there. The other room I was considering has two windos, so that seems like a no go. However there is a closet in that room but its SMALL. Like so small a large gun safe wouldn't even fit into. My wife and I, and our son our all trying to think of something feezable before we call a contractor. Its really tough trying to come up with something doable, as I'm sure this home wasn't built with the assumption that the future occupant will want to put a vault in.

 

[rcmodel]

Check Goggle for "Tornado safe rooms".
I believe there are some being made that would work fine on your garage floor.
With a little modification, a locking Safe door could replace the standard steel door I betcha. Your average crackhead wouldn't be equipped to get through a steel wall.

http://www.tornadosaferoom.com/

rc

 

[rondog]

Perhaps you could build a "safe room", or a reasonably secure small room in your existing house, but calling it a "vault" would be a stretch. This is a tough one, lots of things can be done to many existing homes to make an existing space a little more secure, but IMO a real "vault" that's truly secure would have to be built into the home to begin with, and would cost a fortune. It's certainly a dream of mine, I can tell ya that.

My home has a fairly large "L" shaped patio in the backyard that could be dug out and rebuilt into a secure, reinforced concrete two-room expansion of our basement, complete with a real vault door from Ft. Knox or similar. Then the house could be expanded onto the top of this vault to cover it and make it totally secure. I dream of this a lot and it would make a helluva gun room! But the cost would be as much as the house or more, and getting the equipment in to do the work would be impossible.

So, I'd realistically be better off building a new house, with a vault designed in. And that's not gonna happen. So, I just have another cigar and keep dreaming. What I'm actually planning on doing is putting a Liberty Franklin 50 safe in the garage, and then enclosing that with a homebuilt plywood storage cabinet to hide/disguise it. That's the best I'll be able to come up with for real.

 

[rondog]

OP, you said...

The garage doesn't seem like it would be a good idea as there can be no disguising whats out there.

But really, with a good large safe bolted down close to the wall, you could very easily frame up a wooden "storage cabinet" all around the safe, using 2x2's for the frame and 1/2" or 3/4" plywood for the cabinet itself. Put on a couple of doors and lock them with a big hasp & padlock.

Then just paint it and it'll look just like any other Bubba-built tool cabinet, but it'll have your gun safe inside it. I mentioned this in my post directly above this one, but I thought I'd mention it again.

This is exactly what I plan to do in my garage, but I've got to get that wall insulated, drywalled and painted first. I also plan to build a second plywood storage cabinet right next to it, but with hell-for-stout shelves in it, and that's where all my ammo cans and other gun/shooting/range goodies will live. It will also have two plywood doors and a big hasp/padlock arrangement.

This way, all my guns and stuff will be locked up securely, in my garage where I can easily load/unload stuff for trips to the range (no more schlepping up and down from the basement, WOOHOO!), and with the garage door open the only thing anybody could see is just a couple of big plywood storage cabinets in there.

 

[thefamcnaj]

If I go with a safe in the garage(which if I get the amsec, it will have to go in garage) will golden rods be enough to combat humidity? Thats the only reason I'm some what scared of the garge is the fluctuation in the tempreture.
I'm starting to realize that a gun vaut in this style home just isn't practical, but this tin can Liberty is not giving me peace of mind any more.. So the planning and thinking will continue.
I like the cabinet built around the safe idea. Atleast if the safe gets attacked it will take the force to the door which is the only strong part of a "gun safe" that isnt: brown, amsec, or graffunder.
Also like the idea because I could do some additional fire proofing if I wanted to....I think.

 

[Warners]

We are in almost the exactly same predicament. The difference being that I have a basement, which is partiall finished. About the only space I have to build something is 4 feet x 5 feet. Since one of the walls in this corner is brick (from what used to be a coal room when the house was built - that's 8 feet by 7 feet but is currently my tool room) and the other is the poured foundation of my house, I would only need to construct 2 walls, the door (which IS the hardest part!) and the ceiling, which is also not easy. Here's my current plan....which might help you with some ideas.

I would build the 2 walls using the regular 8"x8"x16" cement blocks that you see in most buildings. This should be fairly secure and also pretty fire resistant, at least for a good while. This would leave me with an inside dimension of about 41"x53". Hardly a "safe room" and a pretty small "walk in" area, but compared to a "large" gun safe, it would be plenty big, and cheaper to build than the safe would cost. That's the easy part...the walls.

Here's the hard (or expensive) parts:

CEILING - My "ceiling" will only be 6' 6" due to some existing duct work that limits the celing height. Depending on what I use and how thick the ceiling ends up being, that's going to put the ceiling height down to about 6' 2". I'm 5' 10" so not a huge deal for me, but that's what it would be. So I have two different thoughts on the ceiling. The first one would be to use 3/16" steel and mount it to angle iron - then I can push it right up to the ductwork. This would be fairly secure. I could underline it with cement board for fire resistance. The metal piece alone would cost about $200. My alternative idea to that would be to still use the angle iron supports inside the enclosure, but to use 2 pieces of 3/4" plywood, covered (top side of enclosure) with 2 pieces of cement board for fire resistance. I think this would be fairly strong and fire resistant. Better than the 3/16" steel and cement board idea? I don't know. CERTAINLY cheaper, though.

DOOR - The way to go here is definitely one of the steel fire doors like you see in manufacturing buildings. The cheapest I've found these (with the steel frame that gets mortarted right onto the cement blocks) is a bit over $300....for a NORMAL size. I MIGHT be able to get one made for the smaller door height that I'd need (remember my low ceiling height?).

So....that's where I'm at in the thought process for my "room". Maybe some of my ideas will help you......or maybe some of you have some better ideas or reasons why my ideas aren't good. Good luck and keep us posted on your plans...

Warner

 

[splithoof]

You said the floor is a slab; that is your starting point. The "man cave" 10X10 room should be just fine. You will likely want to add four concrete walls and a ceiling with reinforced concrete to one foot+ thick. When you construct the walls, include some sort of vent pipe and access for coms, etc. Several safe builders offer heavy vault-type doors complete with heave steel frames, locking bolts, S&G locks, and internal releases. Consider a door that opens inward, so if a storm or other event dumps debris in front of the door, you can still open it from inside to escape. Yes it is going to be expensive. Yes it will take some careful planning to avoid the neighbors from knowing, and yes, you should think very hard about not involving the local building department.

 

[a1abdj]

Building a real vault inside of an existing structure is possible, but usually difficult and expensive. Building hardened rooms is much easier.

Here's a good example that nobody ever thinks of. Adding block, ICF, or full concrete walls is often a suggestion. Don't forget that to do this properly you'll need to cut up your existing floor and install footings for those walls. You don't want to go to all of that effort to build a room just to have it settle/crack/sink/etc.

 

[thefamcnaj]

Hey Frank thanks for the reply. Thanks again for all the previous info. You passed on to me. Rhino Vault
Seems like the only vault possibility I have. The amsec would be great in the garage, but a wall around it is a must. I'm not a handy man what soever so Id have to get some one to do that for me. Yes I admitted it .
Frank do you know any thing about Rhino vaults? Or anyone else.
I'm narrowed down to my final two options, just deciding what I think I'll like the best.

 

[a1abdj]

I'm not familiar with that particular company, but know that there are several other companies that build modular storm shelters that seem to be very similar in construction.

I notice that Rhino does offer some ballistic protection, but that is something that can easily be added to any other product, or even to a room itself. Most of these companies are using rated fiberglass panels. This can be purchased as a raw material. We have used it ourselves on a few projects.

Have they given you any specs on the rooms as far as the steel thickness? I have seen storm shelters range from 12 gauge up to about 3/16". Neither will give you true burglary protection, but some of the 3/16" stuff that I have seen has a few other things going for it aside from the thickness itself. The good thing about using something like this is that it will sit on the floor without any major modification.

 

[thefamcnaj]

They said its 1/4 steel panels bolted together with half inch bolts.
I'm thinking the amsec in the garage with "home made concreat" walls around it would be just as good.
When I say home made I mean cynder blocks laying holes up with quick crete and re bar filling it in. All the way up all sides with safe door exsposed because I feel confindent the amsec door couldn't be breached.

 

[BADUNAME37]

To put it simply, anything is possible if one has the money needed to make it happen.

Like they say "for the right price, we can build a dam ANYWHERE on the river!"

 

[splithoof]

^^^ Ain't that the truth!

 

[steven58]

OK, this is going to be a bit "outside of the box" thinking here but bear with me.

If your garage is attached to your house you could do the following:

At the back of the garage cut a doorway from the house into the garage. Install a plain white steel exterior door with a deadbolt and locking pins on the hinge side in a reinforced door frame with long lag bolts and concrete.

On the inside of the garage side, rent an impact drill and drill into the slab a row of 6-8" deep holes and build a rebar reinforced concrete block room that steals some of the parking space nearest the house. You can use 2" thick marine plywood sheets for the "roof" with steel mesh sandwiched in between and all epoxied and screwed together. Then tie the roof into the walls from the inside of the room.

Now the weird part. You spray the entire structure with bedliner inside and out. This will greatly increase it's resistance to impact and blast Watch this Mythbusters episode clip on bedliner uses the relevant part starts at about 2:35. http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbusters-bedlam-proof-bedliner-aftershow.html

The results with C-4 are amazing! even at 2 X the C-4 that destroyed the non bedlinered walls the sprayed ones survived without a scratch!

You can add lighting and electric heat to suit your needs. You can also add a camouflage Door on the house side that looks like a built in book case that swings in to the house as the steel door is rigged to swing in to the strong room.

For the level of protection this low tech approach would provide I think it's probably cheaper and easier than attempting to build it out of sheets of steel.

 

[thefamcnaj]

This a good idea. In my situation for what I want and what I have to work with, I have to think outside the box. I was thinking of framing out a free standing room in the garage. Ply wood for the walls just for an out line. Then I was going to take cynder block and go along the walls, then another row out side of that. I was going to fill the cynder block hole in with concrete and rebar. Put a vault door on the opening and then then sheet rock around the concrete wall and put a door that looks like every other door in the house up to disguise the vault door. Think this would work?

 

[BADUNAME37]

If the garage and the house are on a slab, why not make it anywhere, preferably in a corner? Support the corner roof structure and remove the exterior wall framing and jackhammer up the corner of the existing slab. Pour new reinforced concrete footings for the new room and pour formed concrete walls, after that, put corrugated steel on the ceiling and pour a reinforced ceiling. Everything would be poured concrete of maximum strength and loaded with rebar. For pouring up high, a concrete pumping truck will be necessary. With this room, it would double as an emergency shelter. Make sure you have ways to evacuate the room if need be from one side or the other.

Heck, if you wanted to add a bit of heat, install a small boiler with heat piping poured in the slab and/or in the exterior walls.

I think, by the time you mess around with cinderblocks and reinforcing them and pouring concrete in them, you could have a real concrete room that would surely be strong! The entire neighborhood could blow away and your room would still be there, standing!

 

[CapnMac]

You don't want to go to all of that effort to build a room just to have it settle/crack/sink/etc.

Frank speaks great truth in only a few words.

10'-0" long wall, 11 courses (88") high will has 7.5 16" long blocks by 77 tall, for 82.5 blocks, which weigh about 20# dry; call that 25# mortared. That's 2062#, or one ton in block alone (before filling the voids with concrete at 150#/df). 120 x 8 = 960, which is 6.666 square feet, so the loading on the garage slab is 310/sf.

I'd want to install a footer under that load, I really would.

I'd want that even with what I might specify, which would be 4" block with 1.5 galvanized metal framing on the inside--to carry the finish drywall--and 5/8" galvanized channel on the outside--to carry the concealing drywall. Note that the galvanized parts here allow running electrical inside and out--useful and concealing. Rock wool or similar less-flammable insulation would fill the spaces.

If I could get them, I'd "roof" in precast concrete planks; otherwise, I'd use 16 or 18ga. corrugated B panels, and run LWT concrete in over those.

Note, cutting the garage floor for footings has some other benefits. Like being able to run electrical and phone and data conduit into the space without being exposed.

now, I'm not a tv actor, but I play an architect & builder in real life; so, your mileage can vary.