Big Lube bullet; how it compares with multigroove ones

I like that with the short '61 barrel. That would be a nice small game/survival pistola.
 
Onty said:
@ Ugly Sauce, Navy Six 2

I think I found it:

View attachment 1118426

http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=11#catalog-anchor

Thanks for tip.
Click to expand...

Dang! Who would have thunk? I think that's the most accurate bullet out of either of my .36" pistols. From the '62 it pretty much shoots into one hole, but as mentioned, with only 15 grains behind it it is going very slow. Would kill a grouse for sure, but might bounce off the side of a wolf. !!! Sure loads easy, not a bad bullet. On this target I wrote 140 grain, but they actually weigh (the ones I have) dead-on at 130 grains. DSC07594.JPG
 
Here is something that some might find interesting. An illustration from the Smith and Wesson catalog of 1900.

A cartridge featuring a self lubricating bullet.

I assume this style of bullet was developed for Black Powder, note how much powder is filling the cartridge in the cut away view.

I do not know how successful this idea was, and I do not know how long S&W manufactured it, but it was a catalog item for a while.

pnH3vnbCj.jpg
 
I made few changes on previous design (post #7), and in illustration is also included bullet cal. 36. MP-Molds make cavities with peripheral milling method and these bullets are designed so a single cutting tool cold be used on both.

As for diameters on cal. 44/45 bullets, shown is bullet for Ruger Old Army. I checked two cylinder I have, and their bores are .452-.453, and in that respect, diameters are .457"/.451". Regarding Remington 1858, I found on my Uberti that cylinder bores are about .449", so correct diameters should be .453"/.447". Also, If have it right, Walker and Dragoon have fairly long cylinders and even with this long bullet, they will still have a plenty of space in their chambers for powder. Since I never had a chance to examine them, please let me know their chamber diameters.

As for cal. 36 bullet, I found on internet that Pietta usually makes cylinder bores .368". Considering that, I think that .372"/.366" should be right combination. If some of you have cal. 36 revolver with different bores, please let me know so we can adjust diameters for those revolvers.

Qd6gzTB.jpg

Idea was to make large capacity lube groove, but also a long one. Longer groove will make longer contact surface between barrel and lube. Next, longer lube groove will make also higher hydraulic pressure on aft driving band during bullet acceleration in cylinder and barrel. In addition, 10 degrees slope just in front of aft driving band should contribute to a good lubricant penetration between bullet and barrel. Hopefully, final result should be far better lubrication than with existing bullets.

Is this idea just a nice pipe dream, or there is something in it, my guessing is as good as yours. The only way to find out is to make prototypes and test bullets. Hopefully, in next few months Miha at Mp-Molds will catch up with large backlog, so he will have time to work on this project.
 
That hollow base still looks really deep or generous to me. Would it be as effective, in your mind, to reduce it a bit?
 
Howdy

I want to say again that a deep hollow base like that is unnecessary.

Study this photo. It is a page from Jerry Kuhnuasen's excellent The Colt Single Action Revolvers, A Shop Manual, Volumes 1 & 2.

The page is showing the configuration of early 45 Colt cartridges. Note the hollow base to the bullets. Note too the comment that the hollow base made reasonable accuracy possible with revolvers with different chamber, chamber throat, and barrel lands and grooves dimensions. These dimensions could vary considerably on the early Colts, so the skirt of the hollow base could expand much like a Minié Ball to engage the rifling. A Ruger Old Army should not have dimensions that vary so much, so a deep hollow base such as you are showing is completely unnecessary. Also, I would point out that as someone has already posted, filling that huge hollow base with powder, to avoid leaving air in it, would probably necessitate pointing the muzzle down at some point during the loading process. This would allow powder to flow into the hollow base before final seating of the bullet.

pmK81OiCj.jpg




By the way, all of this was an academic exercise for me, until yesterday, when I was able to obtain a Ruger Old Army of my own. All I need to do is replace the after market grips with correct ones, and I will be shooting this Old Army soon.

pmcxLuOKj.jpg
 
Driftwood Johnson said:
Howdy

I want to say again that a deep hollow base like that is unnecessary.

Study this photo. It is a page from Jerry Kuhnuasen's excellent The Colt Single Action Revolvers, A Shop Manual, Volumes 1 & 2.

The page is showing the configuration of early 45 Colt cartridges. Note the hollow base to the bullets. Note too the comment that the hollow base made reasonable accuracy possible with revolvers with different chamber, chamber throat, and barrel lands and grooves dimensions. These dimensions could vary considerably on the early Colts, so the skirt of the hollow base could expand much like a Minié Ball to engage the rifling. A Ruger Old Army should not have dimensions that vary so much, so a deep hollow base such as you are showing is completely unnecessary. Also, I would point out that as someone has already posted, filling that huge hollow base with powder, to avoid leaving air in it, would probably necessitate pointing the muzzle down at some point during the loading process. This would allow powder to flow into the hollow base before final seating of the bullet.

View attachment 1119526




By the way, all of this was an academic exercise for me, until yesterday, when I was able to obtain a Ruger Old Army of my own. All I need to do is replace the after market grips with correct ones, and I will be shooting this Old Army soon.

View attachment 1119527
Click to expand...

Those Herrett grips were ugly but they worked pretty well…
 
Driftwood Johnson said:
filling that huge hollow base with powder, to avoid leaving air in it, would probably necessitate pointing the muzzle down at some point during the loading process.
Click to expand...

Or, pre-fill them with 4fg, then seal with a thin nitrated wad or paper. !!!! Just kidding, I'd go with the Colt type shallow cupped base.
 
That deep hollow base is actually carry over from .455 Webley:

1SsY2y.jpg

Please make a note that Mk I case and bullet were designed for black powder. However, case didn't contain enough charge to bring pressure high enough, so bullet was made .455" and cylinder bore about .448". This method will bring pressure on desired pressure "6 TONS" (per square inch) https://images.gunsinternational.co...e-Pistol_101268009_87874_03B70887B9AFAC80.jpg , as usually stamped on Webley revolvers. As per C.I.P. https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/en/tdcc_public?page=5&cartridge_type_id=4 , max. pressure for shorter Mk II round (with smokeless powder) is 900 bars, or 13053 PSI, so pressure for Mk I should be about the same.

I had and handled a number of Mk VI Webley revolvers and all of them have undersized cylinder chambers, like .447-.449", but barrels have groove dia .450-.452". However, bullets were .455" dia. Whatever we think about this odd design, actually worked very well, and a number of top scores with Webley revolvers on competition in Bisley UK (now, you know where Bill Ruger got idea for name for his Bisley revolvers) confirmed that.

As I mentioned before, I am in contact with MP-Molds, and they make just gorgeous Cramer style molds for hollow point and hollow base bullets. The beauty of their design is that if somebody doesn't want hollow base, HB pins could be just flipped other way. Here is how it looks like on .455 Webley mold:

c11NU1R.jpg

The only problem is that handling of such modified mold requires extra caution, not to drop mold on hard surface with pins protruding from the base, they could be damaged. One solution is to get additional set of blank pins that could be purchased for a reasonable cost. I don't know how much blank pins are now, but at 2011 blank pins were $16 for set of 4 https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sh...yle-Group-Buy-(GB)-open&p=1400129#post1400129 . I would expect that these days additional pins will be somewhat more.

Anyhow, this should be an interesting project, and I will post whatever results are. If it doesn't' work, hope you are not going to roll me in tar and feather.
 
For sure designing bullets is most interesting. The beauty of that Webley mold, to me, is that those base pins could be modified to adjust the depth of the hollow base. I'm a Webley fan, have had and used one for many years (used to be my go-to hiking/trekking/exploring/hunting sidearm) and it is an interesting bullet. I don't have a mold, but do have a large supply of Webley bullets bought at a gun-show years ago. They differ slightly from the above, in that the tip of the hollow base extends to the second from the top grease groove, whereas on the above bullets I see it extends to the top groove.

The Webley chambers are "different animals" from most revolver chambers, and BP revolver chambers. As you know, instead of having a "step" ahead of the cartridge case, which steps down to the bullet diameter, the Webley has a "slope". I have heard that the whole mouth of the chamber slopes or tapers, but looking at mine I cannot tell if that is true. I can see the taper just ahead of where the cartridge case would end. Where did you measure the chambers on the pistols you examined? If I take a bare-bullet, I cannot press it all the way through the cylinder. My bullets measure .454". So the mouth of the chamber is indeed tight.

Anyhow, I don't think I would take any lessons from the Webley. It is a very long bullet, due to some small extent because of the deep hollow base. Of course the long nose is designed to work well with the tapered, rather than stepped chamber throat.

Having said that, I've found that 456 grain, 454" semi-wad cutter, flat base bullets shoot just fine in my Webley.

Good luck with your bullet. If you don't go to a cup-base, rather than that large hollow base, we will not tar and feather you, but we will strap you to a chair, and make you watch Miley Cyrus for TWO HOURS. Volume turned up to LOUD. Then you will BEGG to be tared and feathered. :rofl:
 
hawg said:
I use a smokeless design with narrow lube grooves in my 44-40 revolver. I used them in my 44-40 1892 carbine too. The bullets didn't hold enough lube to leave a lube star on the muzzle but they were accurate and fouling wasn't excessive. I think either would be more than sufficient in a cap and ball revolver.
Click to expand...
If you didn't notice, there is a thread https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=54292.0 about bullets for 44-40, and author preferred bullet 43-215C from Accurate Molds, see http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=16#catalog-anchor .
 
hawg said:
They're 200.
Click to expand...
Is that the Lee mold?

They don’t have a huge capacity for lube but unless you’re shooting cowboy games or something like that I don’t think bullets need a ton of lube.
 
woodnbow said:
Is that the Lee mold?

They don’t have a huge capacity for lube but unless you’re shooting cowboy games or something like that I don’t think bullets need a ton of lube.
Click to expand...

Yep Lee. I shot those bullets in CAS with two Uberti 73's and a Rossi 92. They worked well even tho they didn't leave a lube star with the Rossi.
 
I see some pretty nice designs here. I appreciate lots of lube room personally and think handgun conicals usually lack in that area and can always use more. I would really like a big lube design in something like the Johnson Dow style .44 that would be compatible with paper cartridges. That would be spectacular
 
When you order a mold from Accurate Molds, how long does it take, usually, generally, to receive it?

TIA
 
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