Big Question for you .454 Casull hand loaders.

[fairlynovice]

So the gist,
I have load some speer 45 Deep Curl 300 Grain bullets in CBC once fired brass with 30.1gn of Win 296 (the second lowest out of 5 loads in the Hornady load book) compressed some powder, a practice which I try to avoid. When I fired this load, which works beautifully with 300 gn XTPs, I immediately noticed a much heartier kick and signs of over pressure. I pulled the rest of the bullets and dropped most down to 27.7 (less than minimum load) and a few down to 28.5gn. I am pretty sure that even at 27.7 grains of 296 I am still compressing the powder slightly or if not they're at 99% capacity.
ISSUE #2
The CBC Brass stuck in the chamber with the factory loads, I usually just had to tap very hard on extraction bar to get them out, the hot load required a rod to tap them out of the cylinder. Anybody else notice this with CBC brass, The factory loads had no signs of over pressure, I assumed it was a caused by a cheaper brass alloy than usual.
I have read that CBC brass in .454 casull tends to be heavier, thus less case capacity, though I doubt enough to change case capacity by 4-5 grains of powder.
My Question, Has anybody noticed reduced case capacity with either speer 300 grain Deep Curl bullets or CBC brass and have you had any problems with CBC cases sticking in 454 Casull caliber?

 

[harvester]

30.1 gr is a hot load.

 

[Hammerdown77]

Get out your calipers and measure from the crimp groove on the Speer bullet to the base, then do the same for the XTP. Hornady's XTP usually has one of the deepest seating depths, therefore you will often hear if a load is safe for the XTP, it should be safe for any other bullet. If the measurement from the Speer bullet is greater than the XTP though, you need to back off the charge. You'd think the manual would have taken that into account though, if they listed that actual bullet.

Not familiar with the CBC cases in 454. I've used them in 45 Colt, and they seem the same as the Starline and Remington cases I have. Might pick you up 100 Starline cases from Midway or someplace and try those.

As an aside, I use 26.5 grains of H110 under a 300 grain truncated cone style lead bullet from Missouri Bullet Co. in my 454 Freedom Arms. It has two crimping grooves, and I use the lower one (the one that seats the bullet farthest out). That load shoots like a champ out of my gun:

 

[rcmodel]

Hornady XTP's are conventional jacketed bullets.

Speer 45 Deep Curl bullets are plated bullets.

Data for them is typically lower then for jacketed bullets.

It could be a combination of that, and cases with less capacity.

rc

 

[Coal Dragger]

The latest Speer manual lists 31.0gr of W296 as maximum charge under a 300gr Deep Curl, as you noted this is a compressed load. Speer used Winchester brass for these and noted their preference for Winchester brass for max loads since it is harder than other brands and has less pressure issues. They also note specifically that maxed out loads should only be fired in a case once. Their test bed revolver is a Freedom Arms, so the listed loads should work well in the extremely strong, tightly fitted Freedoms but we don't know what you are shooting.

I have used their data in Starline brass in my Freedom and had no issues, but your results may vary. Winchester brass in .454 Casull is expensive by the way.

Oh and for once BCRider is wrong about something. The Speer Deepcurl for the .454 is not a played bullet, it is a bonded core bullet with a jacket that is .030 thick. Specifically designed to handle .454 Casull.

 

[rcmodel]

Ahh?
BCRider wasn't wrong.

If anyone was wrong it was me.
But I don't think I am.

Speer Deep-Curl is the new name for the old Gold-Dot bullet.

The jacket is bonded to the core "one molecule at a time" according to Speer.
That means it is electroplated.

You can see the plating inside the HP cavity where it splits when the expansion slits are formed after plating.
http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?id=142

rc

 

[Coal Dragger]

I got the name wrong, oops.

Doesn't change the fact that the Speer people designed the Deepcurl .454 (actually a .452) for the .454 Casull. The jacket (what they call it) is .030 thick, and will not deform on forcing cones. I have shot several hundred of them and they shoot great, and hold together quite well when pitted against sandstone rocks.

 

[CraigC]

As RC posted, Deep Curl is just Speer's new name for the Gold Dots designed for sporting purposes, to differentiate them from the self defense versions. Actually they're all "plated" bullets, in that the jackets are bonded to the core through a plating process. Both the regular 300gr JSP and the Deep Curl designs. Although max charges in Speer #14 differ greatly. Which also lists 31.5gr H110 (same as 296) as a max load. Not to be confused with regular plated bullets like Raniers.

 

[fairlynovice]

Minimum hornady is near max Speer

Thanks for the input. The max load would explain it, I will have to be more careful extrapolation one manufactures load data to another bullet of the same weight. I knew they varied but I figured if I start at the bottom there shouldn't be any issues. I stand corrected.
I have starline brass and prefer it but it would be a shame to let good brass just collect dust on the shelf. I will test out the 27.7 grains and inspect for high pressure signs. Then perhaps retire the CBC brass to Hot Colt loads.
I much prefer the XTP Mags but they are few and far between so I get what I can when it is on sale.
Thanks

 

[Coal Dragger]

What kind of revolver are you shooting?

 

[fairlynovice]

A Taurus Raging bull, is what I am shooting it out of. So a hot load for the Freedom arms revolver is down right dangerous out of my gun.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Still odd that you have had trouble at the charge weight you are running, it is not a max load. The Speer manual clearly states that they limited pressures to 55,000PSI, even though true maximum is more in the 60-65,000PSI range.

If I were you I would procure some Winchester brass, and work up slowly to listed max and see if the harder stiffer Winchester brass makes a difference for you.

 

[fairlynovice]

I use starline brass for my hotter XTP Mag loads. As I said the CBC was sticky with the factory loads which were not hot (MagTec) So It seems their brass is just sub par for this caliber

 

[Coal Dragger]

I use Starline without issues, so that may be the way to go. If you run across any Winchester brass it is very very good, but pricey. Plus it doesn't seem to last as long as it work hardens quickly. For hot loads though it is tops.

 

[Hammerdown77]

If his chambers are a little on the large size, he will probably experience some symptoms that appear as over pressure signs. Sticking brass would be the main one (which he has experienced).

I have a Ruger SRH in 454 in addition to my Freedom Arms. The same loads that get sticky when fired in the SRH will drop right out of the chambers in that Freedom Arms after firing. However, any brass fired in the SRH, even after being sized, will not chamber in the FA, because the chambers are so tight. The sizer can't size all the way down to the base of the case, and that is the part that will not go into the FA's chamber.

Makes for some hassle, having to segregate brass.

I'd make sure any load you are using is not at a pressure level tailored for the Freedom Arms guns, or else you are going to have problems.

 

[rcmodel]

One could also assume the Freedom Arms chambers are finished a little bit smoother then the Rugers too.

rc

 

[Prosser]

The hottest load I used with that powder was 27.5 grains, with a heavier bullet.

From my experience, I would be looking at the lowest possible powder charge. With 296 the extra 100 fps you get from low to high isn't going to be worth the extra pressure and recoil. Point of diminishing returns.

4227 is my favorite in big calibers.

If you need more then the minimum charges give you with 296, then you need a bigger caliber.

The Casull was designed back when we didn't have bigger cases. He liked relatively lighter bullets at high velocity for country shooting at long range.
To get this the gun was over built and maximum pressure was VERY high.

Why do you need that extra 100 feet of velocity you get from the 40k pressure loads vs. the 50-60k loads?

 

[Coal Dragger]

I agree with the recommendation on IMR4227, that powder is very very well behaved. Although I will note it is listed as giving wildly varying velocities, Freedom Arms lists it as giving near top velocities with a given bullet weight, Speer has it on the lower end, and Nosler puts it more or less in the middle.

Kind of confusing for load data, but not confusing at all where results are concerned. IMR4227 flat out works, burns clean, and gives me consistently nice accuracy with no pressure signs even over compressed loads.

 

[Hammerdown77]

Yep, IMR4227 is one of those powders that works really well in large revolver cases, and for pushing around heavy bullets. "Well behaved" is an excellent way to describe it. Also capable of surprising accuracy. I have been using it in 44 magnum and really like the way it shoots. Very accurate, and doesn't seem to have quite the sting in recoil that some of the other magnum powders have.

I just don't like the way it smells....

 

[fairlynovice]

At Prosser,
I agree completely and stay well under max loads, its not worth the wear and tear, on the gun and me, Plus 296 is finicky in the powder tosser and when I'm light I don't have to worry about it tossing a little more or less powder. As I said I started at the second lowest weight the hornady loading book had in it and when I reloaded them I dropped down to below the starting load. Thanks for your input though twenty of my rounds I dropped down to 27.7 grains which I hope will be a breeze to shoot.
Thanks for the input on the IMR4227 perhaps when I am done with this jug of 296 I will try out the IMR.

 

[Onty]

296, H110 and especially Li'l Gun (most double base powders) with top loads in magnum cases are hard on forcing cone. I was talking to fellow who was shooting FA 353 using noted powders, although pressures were in rifle range. Gun showed forcing cone erosion quite soon. Hi started using IMR 4227 and no further erosion noticed.

 

[CraigC]

I much prefer the XTP Mags...

Why, the Speers are better bullets???

 

[Coal Dragger]

I agree, those Speers are really good bullets. Shot head to head at the same sandstone boulders my gun running stout loads in my .454 with the Speer, vs a friend shooting XTP's in his .44 (I think they are an XTP Mag too); and there was no comparison. The Speers jacket and cores were still together, albeit completely mangled, and the XTP's simply didn't exist anymore other than jacket fragments.

 

[Prosser]

For what it's worth:

I had a guy, Andy something, load over a 1000 rounds with AA 9, since he had it, and the price was right, on the lowend of the .475 scale.
Results are pretty severe velocity variation. It's plinking ammo, so it's ok, but 4227 is much better at velocity. Easier to measure accurately.

I just got an email from a guy that uses Hs-6, 14 grains, under a 420 grain .475 bullet. He says it flat out works and at his age it kills anything he hits it with.

I would like to thank Lee Jurras for that email. Keep in mind, Lee Jurras has killed everything on the planet, pretty much, with a 185 grain bullet, in .44 magnum at high velocity.

 

[dleong]

For what it's worth, my standard handload for my 7.5" Ruger SRH is a Hornady 300 gr. HP XTP (non-"Mag") atop 27.7 gr. of W296 in a CBC case with a WSR primer at an OAL of 1.77", with a heavy crimp on the lower cannelure. This load yields a muzzle velocity of 1264 fps with an SD of 26 fps. This is an extremely accurate load (sub-3" offhand groups at 25 yards are the norm) and while the recoil is brisk, it is not punishing at all.

Admittedly, in the .454 Casull scheme of things, this is a relatively light load, and the CBC (Magtech) cases consequently seem to be holding up rather well. Last night, I finished processing a batch of them that has been through 17 firings; the primer pockets were still tight and the case lengths still measured between 1.375" and 1.378".

One thing I do do different during case prep is I resize the cases only down to the seating depth of the projectile, so as not to overwork the brass. The cases have effectively been fireformed to exactly fit the chambers in the cylinder of my SRH.