454 Casull but run at 45 colt levels?

[kmcdonou]

I am a new reloader and really want a single action to shoot 45 colt. I like the 45 Colt because of the versatility of the cartridge. I can shoot light cowboy loads up to loads that can kill most anything on the planet. I like that I can use the light loads for my wife or new shooters, and heavier loads for my woods gun (265-300 grains at 1,000-1,000 fps).

So why consider the 454 Casull for these tasks? I've seen new BRF revolvers in 454 Casull for $1,200 and used Freedom Arms model 83s for $1,700-1,800, where as 45 Colt versions are much less common and come at a significantly higher price. Although Starline 454 Casull brass is $0.33 per thousand, versus $0.20 for the 45 Colt, from what I read Casull brass loaded at lower levels will last a very long time, making these initial reloading costs a non-issue.

I know I can send either the FA or BRF back to the factory and get an extra cylinder in 45 Colt, but that will add $400-500 plus shipping. I also know I can run 45 colt brass in a 454 Casull cylinder and realize there will be a fouling/carbon ring at the end of the cylinder because the difference in case length.

Thus, for all these reasons it make sense to me to purchase a 454 Casull at a good price and use Casull brass to download to 45 Colt levels (mild to heavy).

My main concern as a new reloader is getting good reloading data for 454 Casull at 45 Colt levels. I really want the versatility of light to heavy loads and am concerned without much published data I will have difficult getting there safely.

Besides the lack of reloading data, are there other concerns I have failed to consider?

Thanks much.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

If you want a 454, it seems like you've reasoned out the relevant bits...

My understanding is that a conversion cylinder is a nice to have, not a requirement to shoot 45 colt.

I could be wrong there, though

 

[kmcdonou]

Yes, from what I read the reason for having a conversion cylinder is to avoid the fouling/carbon ring that will occur when firing the shorter 45 Colt cartridge out of the longer 454 Casull cylinder. Thus, I rather, if reasonably possible and safe to do so, use 454 Casull brass, but tailored to 45 Colt levels (mild to heavy). I have read some cautions in in other forums, particularly Cast Boolits, about downloading 454 Casull, but others have said it is fine and that is what they do.

 

[Jim Watson]

This sort of thing comes up frequently with ".357 Magnum Target Loads" and can readily be done.
Lack of "recipes" should not be a problem for the prepared handloader.
A hundred dollar chronograph will get you where you want to be, wherever that is.
Start with .45 Colt loads whether SAA or "Ruger Only" and adjust to give the velocity you want.

"Downloading" will not be a problem except with the very slow powders you will find listed for full charge magnum loads.
So don't reduce H110 data by much.

 

[kmcdonou]

So there are no issues just starting with minimum loads for 45 Colt at the starting bullet weight and fps that I desire and go from there? For example, Lyman's 49th edition says a 250 grain cast bullet (#454190) can be loaded with 9.5 grains of AA #5 for a starting load of 703 fps, up to a maximum of 10.5 grains and 885 fps. So, I can start with maybe 10 grains in 454 Casull cases?

Yes, I was planning to get chronograph.

 

[Jim Watson]

Why "minimum?" Unless you want real powderpuff gallery loads. There is nothing you will find recommended for .45 that will bother a .454 gun.
I would start with a factory equivalent load, say 8.5 gr Unique and a 255 gr bullet and see what that chronographed out of the bigger case.

 

[kmcdonou]

I was just using that particular example as a very light load for my wife or new shooters and to know if my approach would be correct. It sounds like I can just choose whatever listed 45 Colt load I want, load some 454 Casull cases, then shoot over a chronograph to get actual fps, and adjust accordingly.

If I use the listed powder levels for the 45 Colt in the larger 454 Casull cases, will I just get lower velocity? Sorry, I am a new reloader and have only followed listed recipes for the correct case size.

 

[Bush Pilot]

I just download 454 loads (Starline brass) for my Freedom Arms. This keeps me from having to screw around with 45 Colt or buying another cylinder.

 

[35 Whelen]

I've never really been able to wrap my head around the "buy heavy, load light" mentality where revolvers are concerned.

A Ruger New Model Blackhawk Convertible in 45 Colt weighs but 36 oz. (Roughly 1 lb. lighter than a FA) and will allow the use of 23K psi handloads, which means a 280-300 gr. bullets running 1050-1100 fps. If you feel the need for more power, the large frame Blackhawks weigh but a few ounces more and will handle 32K psi loads, which nets another 150-200 fps.

I suppose if a man lives in an area where a really powerful revolver is necessary, a 454 Casull might make sense, but for those of us in the lower 48, I'd imagine a good 45 Colt would do all any of us would need.

35W

 

[kmcdonou]

Well, part of my reasoning for getting a 454 Casull is that I can get a better quality revolver--Freedom Arms and BFR--at good price point and they are more readily available used on Gunbroker than the Bisley model Blackhawks, particular in 45 colt. I want to try the Bisley model frame as it is reported to handle recoil better, and the heavier BFR and FA's models will better handle recoil too. I suspect I will normally be shooting 265-300 grain loads at 1000-1100 fps as my woods gun. I want something that can handle this recoil well and allow me to practice regularly. The lighter loads are for my wife and new shooters to use. Also I don't have tons of disposable income and would like a good quality revolver that is versatile. All this leads me to picking up a 454 Casull.

 

[CraigC]

You can certainly do what you describe in the guns mentioned. However, as 35W mentioned, you could also do it in a box stock factory Ruger and with a much lighter gun. The blued Blackhawks are very light weight and packable.

I got a great deal on a used FA83 Field Grade with both .454 and .45 cylinders but it was because I wanted an FA. Still cost three times that of a brand new Ruger. It's really only a matter of what you want, what you want to do and how you want to do it.

 

[kmcdonou]

Yes, but the lightweight is what is concerning to me. I haven't shot big bore revolvers yet, and I am a little worried about the recoil. I know I can train myself to handle it, but I am willing to embrace the weight tradeoff to mitigate it a bit. I'd rather start out with a heavier gun that is carried in a nice, comfortable chest holster (e.g. Diamond D Guide's Choice) and see how that goes. Also, I like quality guns and from what I tell the BRF and FAs are higher than the Rugers without custom work, something I would like to minimize.

In short, I want a single action revolver for use as a woods gun, with a 5.5" barrel capable of handling up to 300-325 grain bullets at no more than 1,200 fps at a manageable recoil, and in a cartridge capable of being downloaded to under 1,000 fps for beginners or my wife to shoot.

 

[Obturation]

This is exactly the road I went down, there's no reason to not get a 454 casull. I don't agree with producing "ruger only" 45 colt loads because of risk to weaker firearms, this is a risk even if someone doesn't own any traditional 45 colt revolvers. No problem downloading 454 casull and no problem with bullet selection , powders or anything, use the top end of standard 45 colt load data as a starting load for 454 casull and work up. Or use trailboss , this is a great option. I like a 325 grain fp over a case full of trailboss , I estimate about 800 fps, a very pleasant load that hits like the hammer of Thor.

45 colt was the first centerfield caliber I owned and always loved it but my heavies were pushing the edge of sanity and I abandoned that before something bad happened . I still load 45 colt just because the smaller case is more efficient for lighter loads with clays, unique things like that but when I want power I'll load a 360 grain wfn gc bullet over a full case of h110- not many guts want more power than that, it's downright unpleasant but accurate and shootable if need be.

These are the reasons I sold off any 44 mags I had , no use for them. Bullet selection is great for 45s and there is a huge range of components that'll work. I've got 2 454s, a 5" super redhawk (toklat) and a 10" freedom arms. Both do different things and both do those things very well.

Get one .
Post pictures.
If you need load recommendations message me, I may be able to help, this is my second most loaded cartridge and I shoot a lot of 454 casull - mild to wild.

Good luck!

 

[kmcdonou]

Great! Thanks for the offer to help with the load data.

You state I should use the upper end of the 45 colt load data for when loading in the 454 Casull cases. So if I want light loads, should I only use Trailboss? What is the risk if I use the starting loads for 45 Colt? Let's use my example from the Lyman 49th edition, which says a 250 grain cast bullet (#454190) can be loaded with 9.5 grains of AA #5 for a starting load of 703 fps. What happens if I use that low of an amount of powder in a 454 Casull case?

 

[Obturation]

Great! Thanks for the offer to help with the load data.

You state I should use the upper end of the 45 colt load data for when loading in the 454 Casull cases. So if I want light loads, should I only use Trailboss? What is the risk if I use the starting loads for 45 Colt? Let's use my example from the Lyman 49th edition, which says a 250 grain cast bullet (#454190) can be loaded with 9.5 grains of AA #5 for a starting load of 703 fps. What happens if I use that low of an amount of powder in a 454 Casull case?

This is strictly an opinion and you should really only use published loads for safety.

If that's what you want there are a couple ways a person could do that. Trailboss is preferred because it fills the case and is completely safe in any cartridge if directions are followed. It's very much a case filling powder for universal use that's safe as you test and try other things.

Powder needs pressure to burn properly, case volume affects pressure so low end 45 colt (or any large case using small charges of fast powder) may not build sufficient pressure to ignite the charge completely or efficiently giving velocity inconsistency and risk of a squib (lodged bullet in the barrel). Seems with a chronograph a careful handloaders could find a consistent , clean and accurate load but care must be taken. Working from a safe load down to a minimum would be the task, checking for velocities , unburned powder and other signs of trouble the whole time. So yes, many other powders will work great but you'd need to do the work to figure it out and when you've got a load you like it's your own, not suitable to share with others because it may not be safe in their situation. Published loads are safe for a huge variety of situations, handloads are made for your specific use.

 

[35 Whelen]

Yes, but the lightweight is what is concerning to me. I haven't shot big bore revolvers yet, and I am a little worried about the recoil. I know I can train myself to handle it, but I am willing to embrace the weight tradeoff to mitigate it a bit. I'd rather start out with a heavier gun that is carried in a nice, comfortable chest holster (e.g. Diamond D Guide's Choice) and see how that goes. Also, I like quality guns and from what I tell the BRF and FAs are higher than the Rugers without custom work, something I would like to minimize.

In short, I want a single action revolver for use as a woods gun, with a 5.5" barrel capable of handling up to 300-325 grain bullets at no more than 1,200 fps at a manageable recoil, and in a cartridge capable of being downloaded to under 1,000 fps for beginners or my wife to shoot.

As @CraigC mentioned, the lighter Ruger revolvers are much more packable and would make better woods guns. IMHO a 50+ ounce revolver is not a walk-through-the-woods gun, and would be akin to strapping on the transmission out of a '53 Buick.

Regarding recoil, my hunting load for my 37 oz. 45 Colt is a 288 gr. cast SWC running just under 1000 fps. I find recoil not the least bit bothersome. Handgun recoil to me is most noticeable with higher velocity loads. When my wife decided she want a CHL, I had her shooting a chunky little steel, single stack 9mm, with which she couldn't hit anything and hated the snappy recoil. I moved her to my Colt Series 70 45 ACP and ball ammunition. With its slow, rolling recoil, she took to it like a duck to water, ultimately firing a 247/250 in her qualification.

Were I you, I'd be inclined to find a cheap second-hand 45 Colt to try before dropping four bills into a FA or something similar. I bet you'll be surprised.

 

[kmcdonou]

As @CraigC mentioned, the lighter Ruger revolvers are much more packable and would make better woods guns. IMHO a 50+ ounce revolver is not a walk-through-the-woods gun, and would be akin to strapping on the transmission out of a '53 Buick.

Regarding recoil, my hunting load for my 37 oz. 45 Colt is a 288 gr. cast SWC running just under 1000 fps. I find recoil not the least bit bothersome. Handgun recoil to me is most noticeable with higher velocity loads. When my wife decided she want a CHL, I had her shooting a chunky little steel, single stack 9mm, with which she couldn't hit anything and hated the snappy recoil. I moved her to my Colt Series 70 45 ACP and ball ammunition. With its slow, rolling recoil, she took to it like a duck to water, ultimately firing a 247/250 in her qualification.

Were I you, I'd be inclined to find a cheap second-hand 45 Colt to try before dropping four bills into a FA or something similar. I bet you'll be surprised.

Those are good suggestions. I will consider that. Good to know that size bullet at that speed is fine in a 37 oz revolver. I would have expected it to be harsher. Granted recoil is subjective, but that is a good data point so to speak.

 

[kmcdonou]

This is strictly an opinion and you should really only use published loads for safety.

If that's what you want there are a couple ways a person could do that. Trailboss is preferred because it fills the case and is completely safe in any cartridge if directions are followed. It's very much a case filling powder for universal use that's safe as you test and try other things.

Powder needs pressure to burn properly, case volume affects pressure so low end 45 colt (or any large case using small charges of fast powder) may not build sufficient pressure to ignite the charge completely or efficiently giving velocity inconsistency and risk of a squib (lodged bullet in the barrel). Seems with a chronograph a careful handloaders could find a consistent , clean and accurate load but care must be taken. Working from a safe load down to a minimum would be the task, checking for velocities , unburned powder and other signs of trouble the whole time. So yes, many other powders will work great but you'd need to do the work to figure it out and when you've got a load you like it's your own, not suitable to share with others because it may not be safe in their situation. Published loads are safe for a huge variety of situations, handloads are made for your specific use.

Good suggestions and approach. So if I started with the upper limits of 45 Colt loadings and worked down, what are the indications of too little powder before I have a bullet stuck in my barrel? You mention unburned powder. Why would that happen in this case, and are there other signs to look for?

 

[GarrettJ]

I see a few issues.

1. new reloader
2. Have not shot heavy revolver loads

I understand wanting to buy quality guns. If a BFR or FA revolver is what you want, I don't want to try to talk you out of them. At the same time, the Ruger may do everything you are looking for.

Personally, I find the plow handle grip on the Blackhawk comfortable up through 250 gr. heavy loads. The 300+ gr. bullets loaded heavy, not so much. I have a Hogue hardwood grip that handles the recoil much better. And it's easier to find than a .45 Colt Bisley.

If I could make a suggestsion. Try buying the large-frame Ruger Blackhawk Convertible. It will handle any of the heavy loads you are talking about, and .45 ACP is a breeze for light recoil shooting. Once you have a comfort level loading for and shooting it, you can sell it and buy a FA or BFR. The Rugers seem to hold their value pretty well.

Just something to think about.

The “heavy-load” grip is shown on the lower gun. Makes a big difference.

 

[35 Whelen]

My best light 45 Colt loads use 6.0-6.5 grs. of 700-X or 6.0-6.2 grs. of Red Dot and with a 250-255 gr. bullet to duplicate the original load. Either of these loads shoot very consistently and are quite accurate, yet recoil is very reasonable.



35W

 

[murf]

get a ruger blackhawk with a 6.5" barrel. use 45 colt for your light loads and clean the chambers often. use 454 casull for your heavy loads. the 454 casull 5-shot blackhawk weighs 50 ounces.

luck,

murf

 

[Typetwelve]

This is all personal opinion, so take it for what it's worth.

I recently bought a 460 X-frame. I like the hot-boys, but wanted something to shoot when I didn't want to put the crack in the liberty bell. Looking up load data for not so hot loads in a 460 case...well, I found there aren't many. Trail Boss kept coming up again and again. The problem is case volume...there's just too much of it to easily reduce loads and honestly, you're on your own doing that as there isn't really any published load data for that.

So I moved to 45 Colt brass...and they work (and shoot) just fine...and the carbon the crap out of my freaking cylinder. It is a massive pain cleaning the carbon ring out of the cyl each time...so I'm not moving forward with 45 colt brass in a 460.

I looked at 454 load dat and it's just about the same...454 was made to be hot.

I'm going to get a single action in 45 colt at some point and leave the 460 for the hot loads as it was meant to be. On occasion, I'll load up some trail boss loads in 460 brass if I want to shoot more than 20 rounds and not go home with a sore thumb.

 

[reddog81]

45 Colt brass is 1.285” and 454 brass is 1.383. These cases are very close to the same length. .460 S&W is 1.8” for comparison.

Any powder and bullet combo that has both 45 Colt data and 454 data should be OK to download from starting 454 down to max 45 Colt loads without issue in a 454 case. For example if a bullet has load data of 10 to 12 grains in 454 and 6 to 8 grains in 45 Colt. It will be fine to load 9 grains in a 454 case. The pressure will still be higher than the starting 45 Colt load would be. I’d only use this rule if there is load data for both cartridges.

 

[kmcdonou]

All of you have given very good suggestions. I reallly appreciate it. I need to think through everything and see what I come to.

 

[black mamba]

When it comes to pressure in straight-walled pistol cartridges, seating depth is key. The deeper the bullet sits in the loaded cartridge, the less powder space there is and the higher the pressure for a given load. Most SWCs have a front driving band that is about the same depth as the difference between the length of a Colt case and a Casull case. So, if you load Casull cases using 45 Colt data, but seat the bullets to crimp over the front driving band instead of below it in the crimp groove, the ballistics will be very, very close to the same as the 45 Colt load. This deep seating of bullets lets you use the 45 Colt data without the problem of the soot ring caused by the shorter Colt case in the Casull chamber.