BIL pointed a gun to his head--Should I take away his gun?

[BamBam-31]

Hello High Roadsters.

After reading many of your posts, I've really come to respect your opinions on many an issue. If you would, please share your opinions on this personal matter:

As the title states, my brother-in-law pointed a gun to his head. The other night, he and my sister (newlyweds) were arguing, and my BIL got so frustrated he pointed his Sig at his temple. By the time I arrived, my sister had already convinced him to put down the gun. He left the house moments before I arrived, half to drive off his anger and half to avoid the awkwardness of facing me. Being the responsible gun nut in the family, I was asked to take possession of the gun. Which I did.

I'm really conflicted about the whole thing. First and foremost, I think taking the gun that night was the right thing to do. It was an emotionally volatile situation, and taking the gun out of the equation was a no-brainer. Thing is, it never should have been introduced as part of the equation in the first place. Do his actions, then, dictate that I never return the gun?

My non-professional analysis is that he did it purely out of frustration. I am certain he meant no harm to himself or to my sister by it. He was trying to reach out to her, to communicate with her on some common ground, but she wouldn't budge an inch from the saddle of her high horse. Still, waving a gun around in desperation, intent or no, is HUGELY irresponsible. There are better ways to get your point across, I'm sure.

In his defense, he agreed to surrender the gun not because he felt he needed to, or because he thought it was the right or responsible thing to do, but because he again wanted to reach out to my sister. He conceded the gun to say, "Here, I'll give you this. I don't agree with it, but I'll do it anyways because I love you. Now, will you at least listen to what I have to say?"

She finally acknowledged and accepted his concession, and in turn, she promised to listen more and to be less self-centered.

Sigh....

So, do I have the right to take away the only firearm in their household? Or is my BIL potentially more dangerous than some burglar or home invader?

Do I return the firearm once things calm down? If so, when? Does my BIL have to re-earn our trust in him to get his own gun back?

Or do I simply rationalize a way to keep the Sig 228?

 

[Triad]

I think you did the right thing. I would return it once things have calmed down, but I'm not sure how you could determine that. I think I would talk to your sister and return it when she's willing to let him have it back. Before I would give it back I would have a talk with him and ask him to think about how long the cops would have kept it if he'd done this in public.

 

[Jim March]

Oh Gawd.

First point, had you been there, I recommend in the strongest possible terms NOT ever physically struggling with the gun while he's pointing it at his head. My personal guess as to the right thing to do is stay about 5 feet back, try and calmly "talk him down". Close to that range in as non-threatening and slow a fashion as you can.

Why 5 feet? It's far enough out that he's not feeling threatened, but close enough so that if he gets pissed at anybody else and tries to point it at you, your sister or anybody else, THEN you make a grab at it! Especially if you have any clue as to how to do a disarm.

Hope that makes sense. Again, that's *not* based on any professional opinion, it's my guess as to the best move.

So what *now*?

Sigh. I don't know for sure. You're going to have to talk to him, with your sister NOT around, and try and get a handle on where his head is at. There's too many other questions that we don't have answers to: how rocky is their marriage? What's his temper like? Is he a threat to her or anybody else?

For that matter, in your shoes I'd ask myself if the marriage *should* be saved. Is your sister the type that will seek out somebody's "mental weak spot" and prod at it over and over and over until they crack? Are there kids involved yet?

The BIL has to understand that he simply must not force everybody around him to worry about his stability by making a statement like THAT with a gun. That's a "statement" on his part that cannot be taken back: "I'm a total lunatic who could be a threat to the life of anybody nearby at any time".

 

[michiganfan]

You absolutely did the right thing. At this point the man should not be allowed access to firearms. He needs to see a counselor.

 

[igor]

What Jim March said. Especially the part about whether the marriage should be salvaged... it takes two to either work smoothly or to deteriorate to such a point. And the couple definitely needs professional help.

 

[Darrin]

Was the gun loaded? I mean, not just the mag, but a round in the chamber? If he was truely just trying to get your sister's attention, perhaps he raised a completely empty gun?

If the gun was loaded, you definitely need to hang on to it for a while. If it was empty, I think he knew what he was doing (even though it was WRONG).

Tough call, mate. Keep us posted on how your future conversations go with both of them.

 

[Stay Low]

Sounds to me like you did the right thing. Don't know what they were arguing about and it probably isn't all that important. I think in addition to the advice already given, your sister needs to get involved in redirecting situations like the one that initiated this event. She is an important part of the equation. Though you never implied it was her fault, I know in my marriage if I don't fight back verbally with my wife, there is no fight. I don't know....just trying to help.

 

[shootist2121]

You did the right thing...But now you're involved whether you like it or not...They both need to seek professional help so THEY can find a better way to resolve their arguements...

For a newly married couple to fight is common, but to get to this level there is more to the picture than you or an outsider can see. I'd keep the weapon till I was convinced by BOTH parties they won't fall into the domistic violence route...

Good Luck...Hope your sister and brother inlaw are a bit wiser in the day light.

 

[280PLUS]

the proper authorities should have been notified...

i've been there, not with guns but with a wrist slasher, same difference.

yes, you should do your best to safely stabilize the situation with minimal risk to yourself and others

but you also should have dialed 911

on a threatened suicide call the whole world shows up with flashing lights and sirens. this is one of the best deterrents that can be used in order to prevent a re-occurence of the same scene.

plus, if things do go bad, youve got paramedics and ambulances already enroute

once the person knows youre not going to screw around with them or their suicide threats, they usually stop. unless the person is truly determined. the BIL sounds more like he's holding himself hostage to get what he wants.

but that doesnt mean he won't do it, it COULD have gone off accidently, given the heat of the situation

does he still have the capability of procuring another gun?

his license (if he has one) should be removed to prevent him from legally purchasing another.

if he gets ahold of another and harms himself or anyone else with it, a portion of the blame can be directed at those that chose to hush it up.

legally i have no idea what the ramifications would be but morally i know i wouldn't want to live with it on my shoulders for the rest of my life.

especially if he were to harm others than himself

by getting the event on record and to the proper people he can receive the help he may need at this time in his life.

he would not go to jail, he would go to the hospital

all the marraige counseling in the world won't keep two people together if one is not really interested in doing so.

a hard part of life to accept, i know, but it is all too true...

once things between he and your sister resolve themselves over time it can be considered as to whether he is still a safety threat to himself and others and possibly regain his right to carry.

take care, i know a little of what you're going through

 

[Art Eatman]

For the moment, there's a much lower probability of outside danger than there is from within the house, so keep the pistol.

Talk to each of them separately about getting some professional counseling. This doesn't require a psychiatrist; there are many good psychology-degree folks out there who are competent. (A psychiatrist has both an MD and the PhD in Psych.) IMO, it's best to let each know you're recommending counseling. Regardless, let them know you feel (I suppose) that it takes two to tango and you're not choosing sides.

And, as said above, the question is legitimate as to whether or not the marriage is indeed worth saving. I have no way of knowing any answer for that...

At this stage, then, that's about all I can see to do. It's gonna be a "one step at a time" deal, and will take time for things to work out.

But keep the danged pistol. There's too much potential for one or the other of them to misuse it. Just because they're calm at this moment doesn't mean tempers won't flare again.

Art

 

[Edward429451]

I agree the guy (or both) may need counseling, but in no way would I call 911 on them. For one they only thing they'd just wind up putting them on a payment plan. Thats the police/courts answer to everything, make em pay.

Plus if they ever get it together and mature, you'll probably have an akward situation on your hands then, as the family member who called the cops on em. I'd say keep the gun but dont consider it yours, even if you tell him that its gone. Many people do stupid things and go on to work things out and mature some time later. Then you could (maybe) give it back to him some time in the future if he gets his mental stability back. (I'm talking a few years or more)

 

[jsalcedo]

I had a very similar experience with my now former BIL.
I'm also the proud owner of my BIL's S&W 629.

Once a person crosses a certain line beating up a spouse or putting a gun to their head for the sake of argument there is earning back that trust IMO.

If you can pay for the gun and keep it that would be best but by all means do not give it back.

 

[280PLUS]

in my experience...

the bs stopped once i called 911 and the person involved figured out it was no joke.

the cycle of "i'm going to commit suicide if i don't get what i want" is very hard to break, especially when its worked in the past.

a 911 call usually does it.

this was at the advice of her counselers, and it worked.

people don't grasp the seriousness of what they are saying/doing until they see all the pretty lights and hear the sirens. and all the firemen and paramedics and LEO's are up close and personal, suddenly the realization hits them that all these people care and theyre making a big fuss over ME and maybe it aint so bad after all...

there was no paying, they went to the hospital, the person got counseling,

in my case the "cops" were not involved at all beyond making out a report, it was all about the paramedics and getting help for her, not legal trouble to boot,,,

if someone ends up maimed or dead, that would be even more 'awkward' than, "hey you called the cops on me when i was being stupid"

don't you think?

unfortunately this individual was not interested in helping herself,

that has a lot to do with it too.

as of today i have no idea whether she's still alive, i have my doubts...

thats something ive had to learn to accept

if you haven't been there, and dealt with it personally, you have no idea.

 

[winstonsmith]

An old girlfriend of mine tried to commit suicide. She called me on the phone, and told me not to call the cops, while her speech started to slur and she started to faint. I eventually did call them and saved her life, but she was angry at me for it.

From my limited experience in this matter it sounds like this guy just wanted your sister to shut up for a second. If he really was going to commit suicide, it was probably because he was so exasperated by your sister.

They should definitely go to counseling.

This guy seems mature. The gun should be given back when he asks for it.

 

[280PLUS]

winton,

better her alive and mad at you than her dead and YOU mad at you...

this is not a case of who's ratting on who to the cops, this is about life and death, literally.

and if she really wanted to die, would she have called you?

remember,

women who try usually fail because it is a cry for help and they chose wrist slashing or overdoses to achieve the desired results, they have time to think about it, get scared and change their minds

men who try usually succeed because although it is still a cry for help they choose the gun or the rope, no time for intervention or phone calls to tell friends not to call the cops, no time to get scared and think it over...

and the ones who really are serious about it never say a word, they just do it and leave everyone to wonder why...

its always the last one you'd expect and if they don't leave a note of explanation, noone will ever know why

 

[winstonsmith]

I've spent a long time getting over her, and realizing those facts. Thanks for your support. I really didn't care about her being angry about the cops, but she seemed more angry that she was alive. Which hurt me...

I know she didn't really want to die. I don't think she does, however.

It doesn't matter.. that was 3 girlfriends ago.

Anyway, enough about this. I don't want to steal Soodoenim's show.

PM me if there's anything more

100TH POST! I'M A SENIOR MEMBER! BWAHAHAHHAHAHHA

 

[280PLUS]

i don't think we're stealing the show...

i think anyone whos had similar experiences should chime in, we can all learn about this from each other.

i've happen to have been through the mill on this and i only hope my experience will help shed a little light on the subject.

btw - mine was about 3 girlfiends ago too and about 15 years as well,

i'm way past it...

m

 

[jsalcedo]

If he really wanted her to shut up than the gun would have been pointed the other direction.

My best friend growing up had the gun to the head syndrome.
He married the most annoying of ignorant women on the planet.

My friend used to point his .357 to his head whenever they would fight he would cock the hammer back...she would cry...he would put the gun away.... and they would have make up sex.....


Gee maybe thats why he never stopped doing that.

One night he had an negligent discharge (no comments from the peanut gallery) ended up shooting a hole through the wardrobe and ruined a lot of her clothes.

The cops were never called on any of the occasions I'm not sure if that would have been wise he probably would have emptied his gun at them and they would have killed him.

 

[Edward429451]

This guy seems mature. The gun should be given back when he asks for it.

In the farthest stretch of my imagination I can't agree with this.

if you haven't been there, and dealt with it personally, you have no idea.

I have dealt with this before. The couple I know that went through it was young, immature. I held the guys 2 guns for about 3 years, gave them back, and they are both doing fine and still together, 12 years later. I'm not saying you're wrong. People are dynamic and situations that are similar can be very different depending on the psychological and emotional makeup of those involved. You ARE probably right for the situation you experianced. There is however, no one answer that is the answer across the board for all people. YMMV.

The guy I know who did this is very embarassed about having done it and made me promise him I wouldn't talk about it, hence no details beyond what I've said. Church counselors are usually lots better than 'State' counselors.

Just my 2 cents and worth what you paid...

 

[280PLUS]

good thing the nd didnt occur while he was pointing the gun at himself, that would have put a damper on the make up sex, i'll bet.

and you guys keep fixating on the 'cops', your not calling the cops, youre calling for an ambulance, the cops just happen to get involved.

yes, emptying your gun at the police would probably make you dead, unless they were being real tolerant that day.

i lived under the tyranny of "i'm going to kill myself" once, i never will again.

and neither should anyone else

incidentally, on court tv i noticed a case where the GF says "i'm going to kill myself" for the umpteenth time, so the BF hands her a gun and says "go ahead", which she does,

he's up for manslaughter now folks.

a 911 call early in THAT relationship might have made all the difference,

leastways, the boyfriend may have avoided being dragged down with her?

it's ok if you disagree, just don't pull that junk around me or you'll be going for a ride, alive in an ambulance, hopefully.

 

[280PLUS]

you assume everyone goes to church...

thats all well and good, but what if things went differently,

you would bear the brunt of the responsibility because you knew the threat existed and chose to deal with it yourself.

overall, i'm glad that particular case worked out the way it did...

m

i feel confident in saying that if the BIL originally in question here had all the town vehicles show up the first time he pointed that gun at himself, chances are he wouldnt try that particular approach again.

and all involved would be free of consequent responsibility should he ever take it further

 

[gharsh]

whether you like it or not....

You have become involved and you may be the only level headed one of the bunch. You did what you needed to do. I agree with 280+ that 911 should have been called.

You could put conditions on getting the gun back, successful completion of a counseling program, anger managment help for both, etc. At the very least, this is terribly irresponsible behavior. Too many things could have gone wrong and once the trigger is pulled you cannot pull that bullet back. No matter what your intention was!!!

What reaction would you have if he pointed that gun at your sister? If he would have thought to point it at himself what's next? You, your sister, any kids, etc. Any uncomfortable feelings of being the one that called the cops be d@#ned. You may even want to consult your local police before you make a decision about what to do with the gun. You could be held responsible if you give the gun back and something happens, not to mention your own personal grief.

 

[Flashpoint]

I would heavily consider his history. Does he or anybody in his family have a history of being suicidal? Secondly what is his history with firearms? Has been around firearms all his life and is use to handling them? If so I would ream him out for being so irresponsible and then give it back. If he has not had much of a history then I would question his knowledge of how dangerous a gun can be if not respected.

I would also encourage him and your sister to seek counseling. If there is such a bad communication breakdown at such an early stage of marriage then it will never last and promises to be an ugly divorce. Good communication (knowing how to communicate) and each person giving 100% to the success of the marriage are essential.

 

[45R]

Keep the gun until he gets evaluated by a professional. In his state he should not be anywere near firearms for his own safety and the safety of your sister.

Mentally unstable people need not to be near guns!!!

 

[spacemanspiff]

one of my close relatives was suicidal for several years. made more than a few attempts at it, but was never successful. the last time he tried it he made some phone calls to say 'goodbye', and fortunately my mother went to his place and called 911 with a cell phone before he could do anything.
by a decision from law enforcement and hospital staff he was put in a mental health facility for a couple of weeks. ever since then he has had a new appreciation for life and is a much happier person.

psuedonym1, should something like this happen again with your BIL, i think that more needs to be done than disarming this person. it sounds as if your BIL is upset because he isnt getting his way. very childish behavior, imho.