Bill Jordan?

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I've known about this for many years - no need for me to dig up the past . If you don't want to believe it , then don't .

Well .38 Special...sorry you feel that way. I guess I should not trust those that were actually there at the time...perhaps their "false" memories were implanted.

Saying one man accidentally killed another is a pretty damning and bold statement. It should ONLY be made if you have evidence to back it up IMHO.

Saying 'you don't have to believe me' or 'well these guys who were there told me' is B.S.

I have seen no evidence that he did. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. However, it seems pretty darn reasonable to ask anyone who makes such a drastic and serious claim that such a claim be backed up.

If you see those who doubt such a statement as a personal attack against you, back up and get some perspective. Claiming one man accidentally killed another should ALWAYS be verified, be it about your next door neighbor, your senator, or a famous gun writer.
 
Saying one man accidentally killed another is a pretty damning and bold statement. It should ONLY be made if you have evidence to back it up IMHO.

Saying 'you don't have to believe me' or 'well these guys who were there told me' is B.S.

I think the point is what evidence would you like ? and if you don't believe someone who tells you the truth, then what would you believe, and why can't you do the research yourself ?

Over the years reference to this incident has popped up in many publications , it is not a new story, it is old history. I assume people who can post on forums, can also google search for whatever confirmation that satisfies them.
 
Saying one man accidentally killed another is a pretty damning and bold statement. It should ONLY be made if you have evidence to back it up IMHO.

Saying 'you don't have to believe me' or 'well these guys who were there told me' is B.S.

I have seen no evidence that he did. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. However, it seems pretty darn reasonable to ask anyone who makes such a drastic and serious claim that such a claim be backed up.

If you see those who doubt such a statement as a personal attack against you, back up and get some perspective. Claiming one man accidentally killed another should ALWAYS be verified, be it about your next door neighbor, your senator, or a famous gun writer.

So the old timer US Border Patrol Agents I worked with, who knew Jordan, can't be relied upon to tell me the truth? You must live in an interesting world.
 
I would think it would just as likely be true as untrue, until we see some documentation. Let's just believe whichever way we BELIEVE, and not try to insist on a final statement until proven. As far as rumors and past information, I, too, had heard many years ago of the accidental shooting. That does not make it a fact, but it leads me to believe that old Bill would have probably denied it in his columns in the gun mags (at the time the story came to my attention, late 60's), as he was around at the time. I also met him at Camp Perry, but I had no desire to raise the topic at the time. I also met another fella who had accidentally killed a friend during a hunt, at age 15. I didn't press him either, but he did tell me about it, and with much remorse. It is sad enough that ANYONE would have to carry that memory around in their life. And for that, let us all reflect on the importance of the safety of gun handling in our own futures.
 
This is very interesting to me.

Here is what "google" had. Frankly I cannot find any evidence that isn't on a forum that states it was Bill that fired the pistol.

The San Diego fallen agent website has this:

Patrol Agent John A. Rector
End of Watch: October 16, 1956
United States Border Patrol
Agent Rector was accidentally shot and killed by a fellow agent who was discussing gun limitations with a third agent at the Chula Vista Sector Headquarters in California. The two agents had unloaded the .357 caliber handgun while examining it, reloaded it, and placed it in a drawer as they began to discuss a different weapon. The discussion returned to the .357 and one of the agents removed it from the drawer, not realizing it had been reloaded. When he pulled the trigger the gun discharged and round passed through the wall and struck Agent Rector in the head as he sat at his desk. He was transported to a local hospital where he succumbed to the wound several hours later.

http://www.sdmemorial.org/index.php?/memorial/comments/C10/

I find a bunch of forum posts that state that it was Jordan, but nothing in writing from a "source". I'm not saying anyone here is lying, but it would be nice to see it documented in some form other then "I knew Bill Jordan or his friends, etc" Even if an agent who worked with him says so doesn't necessarily make it true - rumors start everywhere and information gets distorted.

You would think that some anti Jordan group would have dug this up and published something.
 
I think the point is what evidence would you like ? and if you don't believe someone who tells you the truth, then what would you believe, and why can't you do the research yourself ?
So the old timer US Border Patrol Agents I worked with, who knew Jordan, can't be relied upon to tell me the truth? You must live in an interesting world.

Again, strangers on the internet posting under pseudonyms. There's nothing preventing me from claiming that I was Bill Jordan's best buddy and that he swore on a stack of bibles that it never happened. But because I'm a stranger posting on the internet under a pseudonym, the claim is no substitute for actual proof.

Over the years reference to this incident has popped up in many publications , it is not a new story, it is old history. I assume people who can post on forums, can also google search for whatever confirmation that satisfies them.

Well, I'm ridiculously well read on firearms in general, revolvers in particular, and Bill Jordan specifically, and I've never seen a single reference to it in "legitimate" gun media. The only thing I have ever seen on the subject is dozens of threads just like this one, and none of them have ever presented any of the supposedly widely available evidence either. The characteristics they all seem to share are A) "I knew someone who had first-hand knowledge of it", B) The Fallen Agent quote, and C) "Jeez, just Google it!"

I freely admit the possibility that it actually happened. I just think that an accusation so serious, about a man with such a giant reputation, should either be backed up with something solid or left unsaid entirely.
 
I think the point is what evidence would you like ? and if you don't believe someone who tells you the truth, then what would you believe, and why can't you do the research yourself ?

Over the years reference to this incident has popped up in many publications , it is not a new story, it is old history. I assume people who can post on forums, can also google search for whatever confirmation that satisfies them.

I would like the standard evidence to be brought forth: citation in published material, be it magazine, newspaper, book, or whatever.

I did google search and I did not find any evidence, but much internet rumor
 
So the old timer US Border Patrol Agents I worked with, who knew Jordan, can't be relied upon to tell me the truth? You must live in an interesting world.

No, they cannot be relied on to tell the truth because I have no idea who you are. You could be a 13 year old keyboard commando.

Tell me, how should I distinguish you from them?

If you are putting yourself up as the source of information, state who you are...or PM the person who questions you.

Even then, you are hearing second hand information. Ever hang out in a gunstore and here tall tales? I have no idea if what you heard was accurate or just storytelling. But you know how you deal with that? By stating the name of the person who made the claim, so others can verify that info.

Saying "I know X! Believe me! But who I am is a SECRET" doesn't hold any water.
 
I agree with .38 special. If you can't document it, then it didn't happen. I don't gossip, certainly about life and death and someones reputation.

By the way, in order to believe this story you would have to believe that a seasoned Border Patrol Agent, who severed in world war 2 clearing caves in the pacific theater, who then went back to serving in the BP then deployed again in Korea, again came back to the BP, then helped Smith and Wesson design the K frame, THEN accidentally shot someone, THEN later sold 2 book and maintained his reputation as one of the preeminent pistoleros of his day....
 
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I'll waste a little time and give one published reference to the indident.

DOWN ON THE BORDER Draw!
Though I didn't actually see it, I've heard some rather sketchy stories about a television set being center-punched with a .45 Colt slug in the living room of our house.
By Bart Skelton Posted: 01-06-09 Categories: Down on the Border
Remember the opening scene of "Gunsmoke"? When Marshall Dillon shoots the bad guy in the street? Dillon's opponent was, of course, the famous trick shooter Arvo Ojala. In real life Ojala was a fast-draw artist, able to draw and fire a sixgun in just over a half-second.

My dad watched me carefully, and as I got a little older, he began warning me of the evils of the fast-draw, advising me to never mess around with it.

But I do know that Dad did mess around with it some, though, back when he was a young man. Though I didn't actually see it, I've heard some rather sketchy stories about a television set being center-punched with a .45 Colt slug in the living room of our house. More than likely, that's the reason Dad lectured me against any fanciful ideas I might have secretly had about strapping on one of his Colts in front of the mirror and taking on an imaginary bad guy.

I was fortunate enough to have known one of the greatest fast-draw men to have lived, Bill Jordan. Bill and my dad were compadres, and I had the good fortune of tagging along during some of their escapades.

Bill was a fascinating man. His career with the U.S. Border Patrol is still talked about today, though he retired in the mid-1960s. He'd been a Marine during World War II in the South Pacific and a tough, old-school gentleman throughout his life.

Bill's skills with a Smith & Wesson double-action revolver were tremendous. He loved the Model 19, and back in the 1960s my dad had a great one built for his own use as a federal investigator on the Mexican border. Bill showed up for a visit and took a liking to Dad's Model 19, fingering it during his entire stay.

When he left, Bill left his own Model 19 on the kitchen table and stuck Dad's in his waistband."Skeet, you can have yours back when mine's just as slick," Bill said in his low southern drawl.

A short time later, Dad was down on the Rio Grande working a case on a bad bunch of marijuana smugglers. It was after dark, and the smugglers were starting to cross the river with their load of weed when things went bad. Gunfire erupted, and things got a little confusing.

One of the smugglers was wearing a straw cowboy hat that was almost white in color. Dad was carrying Jordan's Model 19 but forgot that it shot high for him and he hadn't adjusted the sights. Estimating the point directly between the smuggler's eyes, Dad squeezed off a shot. The smuggler ran safely back into Mexico unhurt but more than a little shaken. Dad and his partners managed to get the shipment of weed, but not the smugglers—just the white hat. It had a .357 hole dead center through the crown, a shot that likely took a few of the smuggler's topknot hairs off but inflicted no more damage than that. (No fast-draw was involved, by the way.)

When the old man arrived home early the next morning from the caper, I was just headed off to school. Dad handed me the white hat with the bullet hole in it, and I wore it around for a while. "I can thank that damned Jordan for that ol' boy gettin' away," I later heard him comment.

I saw Bill demonstrate his lightning-fast draw technique firsthand a few times. The records he set have since been beaten, but it sure wasn't an easy feat. Jerry Miculek is pretty much recognized as the top revolver man around. Over the years, Jerry has managed to surpass Bill's incredible speed, but it was accomplished only with great effort .

Bill's classic book, No Second Place Winner, remains a must-read defensive-shooting book. And while it does make reference to fast-shooting techniques, it's not just about fast-draw.

One thing I know for sure about Bill, safety was always first in his eyes. He experienced a tragic incident while practicing his fast-draw technique while a Border Patrol Agent, and he vowed to never have such an accident occur again.

Bill's words of advice to me were clear: When you're dry-firing for practice and reload your sidearm, strap it down and think about what you're doing every time you plan to draw it again.

That turned out to be pretty good advice. While I readily admit I've experienced an embarrassing pistol discharge, thankfully it wasn't in the direction of the television.
 
mnrivrat said:
One thing I know for sure about Bill, safety was always first in his eyes. He experienced a tragic incident while practicing his fast-draw technique while a Border Patrol Agent, and he vowed to never have such an accident occur again.

Hardly conclusive... I think that there is a story of Bill Jordan in his early early early days with the border patrol had a Winchester 1897 shotgun get away from them and put a charge beneath the legs of the Capt or whomever... His Boss in any event. No one hurt or anything... I think it was Jordan...

I will withhold judgement. Other than a lot of speculation on the internet and an acknowledgement that something happened once, we don't have anything. Certainly nothing that says he killed someone.
 
I have read the text of this incident in the past . What do you think Bart's recall of a tragic incident refers to ? A broken finger nail ?

Most of the specific published data came long ago before the internet so purhaps there isn't as much posted on this subject floating around in cyberspace. It has been published in major shooting magazines but even then it wasn't the steady topic of a news year.

I said I was wasting my time because I knew the results would be "hardly conclusive" to those who choose not to believe this happened. As I stated in my first post - I don't need to dig deeper for more conclusive data. If you do, then dig away, or choose to call it BS if you like. No skin off my arshe . How about your prove me wrong.
 
Well see, for me to prove me wrong is antithetical to the American way. You made the accusation, you have to prove it.

As far as a tragic accident, that doesn't mean KILLED someone. It could very well mean that he shot his dog, shot someone in the arm, shot the coffee mug out of someones hands.... The reason the AD / ND are scary is because they have the CAPACITY to kill and if it didn't happen, then it is just luck.

Could I believe it? Yes. But I will say that things like that tend to get mentioned in Biographies and Obituaries.
 
I don't remember how many times I have read, in publications, about Jordan's tragic incident. I can tell you that several times I read it, it was "before Al Gore invented the internet". And Jordan was still alive and kicking to deny it.
 
there was a time before the internet? that was probably a time where a man could make a mistake own it and move on if he was a man character folks would respect and forgive him . mr jordan was and folks did. of course back then no one hired a publicist to spin things either. i read about the incident when i was younger but only once or twice. it was a different time in the us. to me a better time
 
OK - How about this ? Tragic Reality , or made up fantasy ?




Bill Jordan also killed a fellow Border Patrol Inspector back in the day while carelessly playing with his gun at his desk.

here is a little more info from the Officer Down webpage:

The Officer Down Memorial Page remembers...

Patrol Agent John A. Rector
United States Department of Justice - Border Patrol, US
End of Watch: Tuesday, October 16, 1956


United States Department of Justice - Border Patrol

Biographical Info
Age: 58
Tour of Duty: 28 yr
Badge Number: Not available

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire (Accidental)
Date of Incident: Tuesday, October 16, 1956
State of Incident: California
Weapon Used: Officer's handgun
Suspect Info: Not available
Agent Rector was accidentally shot and killed by a fellow agent (Bill Jordan) who was discussing gun limitations with a third agent at the Chula Vista Sector Headquarters in California. The two agents had unloaded the .357 caliber handgun while examining it, reloaded it, and placed it in a drawer as they began to discuss a different weapon. The discussion returned to the .357 and one of the agents(Bill Jordan) removed it from the drawer, not realizing it had been reloaded. When he pulled the trigger the gun discharged and round passed through the wall and struck Agent Rector in the head as he sat at his desk. He was transported to a local hospital where he succumbed to the wound several hours later.

Agent Rector had been with the agency for 28 years.
 
mbt2001 said:
I agree with .38 special. If you can't document it, then it didn't happen. I don't gossip, certainly about life and death and someones reputation.

I agree. I'd like to see documentation on this incident before I truly believe it. Internet conjecture just doesn't cut it. Unfortunately the spread of urban legends seems to have gone to a whole new level with the advent of the internet web forum. Maybe this did happen, and maybe it didn't. But, just like in college, I'd like to see references before I go and believe something.

mbt2001 said:
By the way, in order to believe this story you would have to believe that a seasoned Border Patrol Agent, who severed in world war 2 clearing caves in the pacific theater, who then went back to serving in the BP then deployed again in Korea, again came back to the BP, then helped Smith and Wesson design the K frame, THEN accidentally shot someone, THEN later sold 2 book and maintained his reputation as one of the preeminent pistoleros of his day....

True, but I have known of a few top-tier shooters who have had AD's over the years (one into his television, another into a mirror). So, it could have happened even to a man like this, I suppose.
 
You on drugs? Bill Jordans name was never mentioned.

Agent Rector was accidentally shot and killed by a fellow agent who was discussing gun limitations with a third agent at the Chula Vista Sector Headquarters in California. The two agents had unloaded the .357 caliber handgun while examining it, reloaded it, and placed it in a drawer as they began to discuss a different weapon. The discussion returned to the .357 and one of the agents removed it from the drawer, not realizing it had been reloaded. When he pulled the trigger the gun discharged and round passed through the wall and struck Agent Rector in the head as he sat at his desk. He was transported to a local hospital where he succumbed to the wound several hours later.

Agent Rector had been with the agency for 28 years.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/11072-patrol-agent-john-a.-rector
 
I find it less than ethical to add the persons name into the report. If you are going to present the report as evidence, please don't tamper with the original contents.

From the report, it could have been either of the two agents in the room, both of which are unnamed.

Now if there is another report available that more clearly defines the incident, and includes the roles played by named individuals, that would suffice for me.

Thanks for the link rick newland
 
I find it less than ethical to add the persons name into the report. If you are going to present the report as evidence, please don't tamper with the original contents.

You on drugs? Bill Jordans name was never mentioned.

If you lazy blind people bothered to have looked, that entire report was in quotation. You should note then that the name (Bill Jordan) ,as printed, is part of the report , and not added by me . The information was cut and pasted as it is seen.

I suppose it is easier to try to discredit me, than to look it up yourself, but then I do take offense to your method. Only over the internet will you get by with that.
I find it ignorant of people to disbelieve the reports of this incident simply because they think Bill was some sort of gun god, and therefore incapable of making a mistake. I can respect a person with my eyes still open , I don't have to close them and use my imagination.
 
Review of the orignal report does not mention the officer(s) involved , but it has been widely established that this was the incident Bill was involved in.

The cut and past I did was from a source that had filled in his name, and therefore one could make argument that they got it wrong. I was not there, and therefore, since I have read a number of accounts over the last 40 years, from different sources, that attribute this to Jordan - I believe it to be credible.

That is as far as I need to go with this argument.
 
If you lazy blind people bothered to have looked

We did look, and were not fooled by your altered and false representation of an original document. Before calling us out, maybe you should not be so lazy and check out the story you so strongly present as truth. Google the dead officers name, and you can find copies of that report on at least 6 sites, and not in the doctored state you presented it.


That is as far as I need to go with this argument.

Nice, call members lazy and then run off and hide, your ethics need a strong review. Be a man and admit your mistake. This is not only about the truth of the story, but about your presenting false information, and criticizing those of us who did the right thing and checked out your claims. Time for you to man up, if you can.:cuss:
 
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