Spec ops Grunt
Member
Say your out of slugs or buckshot. How would birdshot perform?
Birdshot for HD?
- Thread starter Spec ops Grunt
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dasmi
Member
Better than a sharp stick.
marklbucla
Member
At close enough ranges, I've been told that it's about the same.
84B20
Member
One good thing about bird shot or any other light load is that if you are in an apartment or there are homes nearby you run less of a risk of collateral damage and that your neighbors will be less likely to be injured by a miss.
I read somewhere on this board that a good defensive load for a shotgun in the home is, depending on the amount of shells your gun can hold, the first few round should be no. 4 shot and the last few should be slugs. That's what I decided to use, but my nearest neighbor is about 1/4 mile away so I don’t have the same risk.
I read somewhere on this board that a good defensive load for a shotgun in the home is, depending on the amount of shells your gun can hold, the first few round should be no. 4 shot and the last few should be slugs. That's what I decided to use, but my nearest neighbor is about 1/4 mile away so I don’t have the same risk.
iiibdsiil
Member
What's considered close range?
Marshall
Member
Go shoot a large target at 25yrds, picture what someones face would look like at the same distance. 
Gary G23
Member
I sold a gun to a guy once that later got shot with birdshot by his stepfather. The guy shot with the birdshot is alive and well today.
First let's define birdshot. 5-9. A number 5 or 6 shot would be devasating under 10 yards, even in a improved cylinder. First few yards the shot is compacted into a 3-6 inch diameter. 1 oz of shot with this compression woudl do all the damage you need to do. I prefer 5 shot in my HD shottie. At close range will still penetrate dry wall but lays a great pattern and that is what I want when I am half asleep, but the adrenalin is pumping.
marklbucla
Member
By close ranges, I meant Apartment distances. Like a long shot would be 10-12 yards.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Pattern and see. Measure the longest possible shot opp in your domicile. Add a yard for GPs. Pattern your birdshot loads at that distance. If the shot arrives in a palm sized clot or smaller, it'll work at THAT range for HD.
bpisler
Member
When i used my 870 for HD in my
apt i used a heavy change of #4
birdshot and a full turkey choke.
With this set up i would get a
palm size hole in the target at
20 yards.
apt i used a heavy change of #4
birdshot and a full turkey choke.
With this set up i would get a
palm size hole in the target at
20 yards.
Hypnogator
Member
At in-room distances any shotshell will be devastating. A skeet load would be just as good as a slug, inasmuch as it'd spread only about 4" at across the room.
If it were me, I'd go with a good high-base load using #4 lead shot. Also, it'll be easier to defend using a "hunting" load to defend yourself than explaining why you have your shotgun loaded up with tactical slugs or buckshot. Preempts the argument that you're some ubertactical troublemaker just itching to off some poor lost soul who just wandered into your house to use the phone.
If it were me, I'd go with a good high-base load using #4 lead shot. Also, it'll be easier to defend using a "hunting" load to defend yourself than explaining why you have your shotgun loaded up with tactical slugs or buckshot. Preempts the argument that you're some ubertactical troublemaker just itching to off some poor lost soul who just wandered into your house to use the phone.
Vern Humphrey
Member
This link has a good explaination of why birdshot is not a good option for HD: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
Further discussion can be found in this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=148099
I'll stick to buckshot for serious use.
Further discussion can be found in this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=148099
I'll stick to buckshot for serious use.
Vern Humphrey
Member
1911user said:
They took a lot of words to come to a conclusion that anyone looking at my cardboard box would accept.
As Ernest Swinton said (in "The Defense of Duffer's Drift"), "There is no excuse for having a paraphet that is not bullet proof when the means of testing it are so readily to hand."
The same is true for determining if bird shot is an effective HD weapon -- one shot is all it takes to answer the question.
berettashotgun
Member
- Joined
- May 8, 2005
- Messages
- 1,149
I was standing next to a guy who was shot with 2 #7 dove loads (from a SxS) in the chest from 3ft; the room was a foggy mist, and a softball size hole was completley thru his chest. I AM NOT ADVOCATING BIRDSHOT FOR H.D., just relaying a happining from my youth. I personally use #4 hevishot turkey loads in the house from a 1200fp. And a coupla' 230jhp from the para P-14.BUT, my honey is very proficient with a pistol, since she carries a glock on duty
campbellcj
Member
I got some #6 Remington heavy-shot turkey loads just for the helluvit. Haven't tested them yet but I imagine they'd hurt plenty at normal HD/SD distances.
Six-Gun
Member
Glad you asked this: if you've never seen what birdshot will do at close range, fear not. It WILL put a hurtin on someone. My friend, a medical student at the time and now a Resident, actually emailed me a shot of some guy's mangled butt cheek who had been hit with fine birdshot (#8 or #9, I'm guessing.) - it was a mess. The plastic wadding alone did a large amount of damage.
It might no be immediately lethal like a slug or buckshot, but I tend to think the reciever won't be doing much afterward.
It might no be immediately lethal like a slug or buckshot, but I tend to think the reciever won't be doing much afterward.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Six-Gun said:
Many a man has been killed by an assailant who absorbed more than one .38 Special or 9mm round. If he's in my house, I want to do more than put a hurtin on him.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
If I was out of slugs and buckshot and birdshot was all I had left, you'd better believe I would be shooting it if all I had was a shotgun for home defense. At a few feet it can be devastating _if it penetrates_, but given the poor ballistic coefficient of a single small sphere I would be using the largest, heaviest pellet loads I had early along and leave the 8's and 9's for last.
Given an option I will stick to 00 buck, even inside...
lpl/nc
Given an option I will stick to 00 buck, even inside...
lpl/nc
Six-Gun
Member
Vern Humphrey said:
True, but the situation he pitched in the initial thread sounds like an "if that's all you've got" scenario. Sure, if there's a better tool at hand, use it, by all means!
I took the tone of the post to say, "are you better off grabbing a throwing knife or a club than using birdshot." The answer is probably no. The fear and intimidation of a blast plus the injury would be superior with birdshot, if you ask me.
The photo below is that of a wet phone book that I shot from 7 yards with Wal-Mart bulk pack Remington 3 DR EQ 1 ounce #7½ lead birdshot. The majority of shot created a large hole at the front of the phonebook with some stray shot all around the big center hole. The damage was mostly in the first 1½ inch with still some good amount of damage at 2 inches with a lot of the shot stopping around this point. At 2½ inches most of the shot had already stopped and only a few pellets went a little over 3 inches.
This round may have some utility in close in defense where over penetration is a strong concern. However I would be reluctant to use it myself.
Just a few inches into the phone book you see very little damage:
In contrast; I shot one round of single ought buck at two wet phone books at 7 yards and all 12 pellets sliced clear through both of the thick phone books with ease (about 7 or 8 inches total). The photos did not turn out well.
Here is a dry thick phone book shot with a 1 ounce Rottweil Blitz slug. The velocity tested out at 1478 FPS from my 20-inch barrel.
The slug just flat blew the phone book away. A large volume of phone book confetti flew in the air and landed all over the backstop. A large clump of sod and mud was blown about ten feet into the air from the backstop.
Exit Hole.
This round may have some utility in close in defense where over penetration is a strong concern. However I would be reluctant to use it myself.
Just a few inches into the phone book you see very little damage:
In contrast; I shot one round of single ought buck at two wet phone books at 7 yards and all 12 pellets sliced clear through both of the thick phone books with ease (about 7 or 8 inches total). The photos did not turn out well.
Here is a dry thick phone book shot with a 1 ounce Rottweil Blitz slug. The velocity tested out at 1478 FPS from my 20-inch barrel.
The slug just flat blew the phone book away. A large volume of phone book confetti flew in the air and landed all over the backstop. A large clump of sod and mud was blown about ten feet into the air from the backstop.
Exit Hole.
Years ago, while out small game hunting, my father attempted to demonstrate how devastating even shot was at close range from a 12 ga. He shot an old, soft, crumbly log at about 2'...
with very little result.
I knew someone who was shot at just a couple of feet with a .410 in the abdomen. Yup, he almost died...but he didn't. And I quite sure he would have killed the shooter, if it hadn't been an accident.
If I had to use small shot to defend my domicile, I would be wanting #4 or larger, and preferably BB. I'd be okay with BB at very close ranges.
John, believes in slugs.
with very little result.
I knew someone who was shot at just a couple of feet with a .410 in the abdomen. Yup, he almost died...but he didn't. And I quite sure he would have killed the shooter, if it hadn't been an accident.
If I had to use small shot to defend my domicile, I would be wanting #4 or larger, and preferably BB. I'd be okay with BB at very close ranges.
John, believes in slugs.
TrapperReady
Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2003
- Messages
- 2,732
Just a few thoughts...
1) When we finally decided to get a dedicated HD gun, my wife and I went to the range and get used to it. We both shot some #4 buck, 00 buck and some slugs. The recoil pad was terrible, and she was getting beaten up, so we switched to #8 birdshot. At 15 yards (which closely matches the longest possible shot inside our house), some of the birdshot was ricocheting off the plywood target backer and hitting our ankles.
2) While hunting last year, I came upon a down tree which had a nearly perfect sized exposed trunk (end-grain) for patterning. I shot a high-brass #7.5 20 shell at it from 15 yards. When I looked at the results, the pattern was great, but the pellets had barely penetrated past their own diameter into the wood.
3) I've shot lots and lots of birds, and have hit a few too close... and seen the results. There's a pheasant load I make which pushes 1 1/4 oz of #5 shot at nearly 1400 fps (IIRC)... and at close range from a tightly choked gun can make a bird nearly disintegrate. However, I wouldn't want to trust it to drop a heavily built man with a couple layers of clothes. I've talked to a few people who've been shot while pheasant hunting, and at any reasonable distance, the effect is less than you might imagine.
4) All that being said, I've often wondered what the effect might be of shooting a swarm of #8 shot at an intruder's head. Sans protective eyewear, I think it could at least take a lot of the fight out of him. Given my 'druthers, I'd prefer 00 or slugs, though.
1) When we finally decided to get a dedicated HD gun, my wife and I went to the range and get used to it. We both shot some #4 buck, 00 buck and some slugs. The recoil pad was terrible, and she was getting beaten up, so we switched to #8 birdshot. At 15 yards (which closely matches the longest possible shot inside our house), some of the birdshot was ricocheting off the plywood target backer and hitting our ankles.
2) While hunting last year, I came upon a down tree which had a nearly perfect sized exposed trunk (end-grain) for patterning. I shot a high-brass #7.5 20 shell at it from 15 yards. When I looked at the results, the pattern was great, but the pellets had barely penetrated past their own diameter into the wood.
3) I've shot lots and lots of birds, and have hit a few too close... and seen the results. There's a pheasant load I make which pushes 1 1/4 oz of #5 shot at nearly 1400 fps (IIRC)... and at close range from a tightly choked gun can make a bird nearly disintegrate. However, I wouldn't want to trust it to drop a heavily built man with a couple layers of clothes. I've talked to a few people who've been shot while pheasant hunting, and at any reasonable distance, the effect is less than you might imagine.
4) All that being said, I've often wondered what the effect might be of shooting a swarm of #8 shot at an intruder's head. Sans protective eyewear, I think it could at least take a lot of the fight out of him. Given my 'druthers, I'd prefer 00 or slugs, though.
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