Black bear vs. 9mm

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Ammo selection

124 gr gold dots have been mentioned. So have 147 gr. OK. Both will penetrate a bit.

Not mentioned yet - leave the 115 gr JHP at home.

If you are carrying your 9 for beast defense in the woods, load it for the woods like you was hunting with it. Select a 124 or heavier bullet to penetrate that beast, +P is not a bad idea either, and pick a JHP that will hold together, like a gold dot or Hornady XTP.

Is it ideal? No. But a 9mm isn't exactly a squirt gun either.
 
I'm by no means a bear expert. Some of the other guys on here know a whole lot more than me, and I'd default to their opinions.

For black bear, I think you'd be OK with a hot 9mm. Its the same sort of deal as we talk about when defending yourself from 2-legged predators. You're shooting to STOP the threat. Yes, that may very well end in the threat no longer having a pulse, but that's not the goal.

I remember a thread here saying that you can get some overlap between really hot 9mm loads and .357, and as JShirley said, .357 will work for black bear. Given that, I'd think that you should be able to show the bear you're not worth the fight.

Sorry my info isn't very scientific, just my $.02.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
 
Thanks for the replies, guys. As I said, these are pretty suburban areas, not Alaska, so the chance of seeing a really big, aggressive bear are unlikely. On the balance, I don't see a big reason to step up, as these are really pretty rare, but there have been 3 or 4 stories similar to this fairly recently, so it did get me thinking. As many of you guessed, I have no real experience with hunting bears, hence the question.
 
It sounds like I need to find a suitable caliber that's effective against lightning then. 10mm should do the trick.
 
Self-defense would be hard to claim statistically. Camera might be better so you can get a picture before it runs away...

"Since 1900, there have been only 45-recorded deaths that were caused by black bears in the North America. This number is very minimal compared to the over 500 conflicts between black bears and humans from 1960 to 1980."

and

"Ninety percent of all known black bear attacks have only resulted in minor injuries" - both from http://ext.nrs.wsu.edu/publications/Blackbears1.htm

Legally, you'll probably pay a big fine and have other complications from illegally killing a bear. Unless you're covered in claw marks, the state will most likely say you poached it.
 
Many consider the 10 mm or .357 magnum as the minimum reliable black bear defense guns. Comparing the penetration and killing power between these "minimum" calibers to the 9 mm puts it all in perspective.

Most people carry JHP in their 9 mm which further limits its utility as a bear gun since you are very unlikely to get the penetration needed to kill a black bear reliably. I have read accounts of police officers killed after firing a full magazine of 9mm into a black bear that they were responding to in a 911 call.

I consider my .357 as my BUG and not my primary woods gun although many of the folks that have killed dozens of bears up here in Idaho that I know swear by the .357 alone. For me, I put the .44 magnum in my bandolier cross carry when I head out into the woods of Idaho.

I would NOT recommend someone consider the 9 mm to be anything but a weapon of last resort in a bear defense situation. It is better than a stick, but it ain't by far my first choice even for people defense let alone bear defense with heavy fur, deep muscle and fat and heavy bones in the way of vitals.
 
I post this story every time this issue comes up. It's been a few years since the last time, so here I go again:

http://www.sc-Democrat.com/archives/2002/news/08August/23/bear.html
 
I do not understand why so many people discount the 9x19. It is a fine cart. Just look at the energy in any reloading manual. I carry a 40 s&w, but 9mm is fine. Some 9mm loads are more powerfull than light 357mag loads with only .002 diff in bullit dia.
 
I think the OP really just wants this question answered:

If I am cornered by a black bear, will the 9x19mm I usually CCW work to defend me?

And the answer is, if you shoot it reasonably quickly and well, and if you load it with quality controlled-expansion rounds, yes. Since this is your typical carry combination, loading with FMJs is stupid and dangerous to you and innocents.

If you can't quickly draw and fire 2-3 well-aimed shots, you need to get a larger (not more powerful) gun. If you, for instance, are carrying a 3" subcompact 9mm, you may need to go up to a compact to gain the speed and control you need to stand a good chance of stopping a deadly threat.

If you're not making hits, and making them reasonably quickly, going up in caliber will only make the problem worse. You also have to be sure you've fired enough of your chosen defensive ammunition that you know where its POI is, and so that you know it's unlikely to malfunction when you really need it.

As the preceding story shows, black bears in the lower 48 that attack people are likely to be undernourished and small, and can be quickly stopped with a well-aimed duty caliber round.

John
 
It really would be terrific if people had some hint of a clue what they were talking about before they volunteered their opinion.

Well, gee...What fun would that be? :D


These threads, when they pop up, show that quite a few folks don't have a frame of reference from which to approach such concerns. It's difficult for the non-hunter (or someone who has hunted, but not the particular species in question) to visualize the dimensions and anatomy of an animal that they've (at best) only seen in zoo and make a determination as to what would be needed to resolve such a threat.

Service-caliber FMJs (depending upon weight and impact velocity), used where bears typically live (the woods), offer 24-36 inches of penetration- more than enough for what needs doing to a troublesome black bear.
 
Here in the NE of PA Bear attacks are extremely rare and while the Black Bears here are on the larger side they are not hard to kill. (unlike those big boys in Alaska) While I would rather carry a .357 Magnum and do I would think a 9mm with a good bullet will stop a normal size black Bear is need be. I would be more comfortable with my .357 Magnum loaded with Hard Cast bullets though.
 
A .22 LR "can" kill a bear but who would recommend this as a "bear" defense gun? No one.

The issue is not whether a 9 mm can kill a bear, but pushing the statistical analysis of successful defenses. A .22 LR is not anywhere near the top or even the middle of the list for acceptable bear defense guns.

I recall an account of a police officer I believe in Maine several years ago who intervened with his 9 mm service pistol and it did not turn out well, he was severely mauled. Wish I could find the link but it just doesn't come up on a Google search so far.

The .357 with max hard cast loads is double the average muzzle energy of the average 9 mm loads. I consider this the lowest acceptable bear defense option. Black bears are not all the little furry 200 pound bear most people believe that they will encounter. Bear populations are rapidly growing and encounters are becoming more common as we encroach the wilderness areas more and more.

If folks wish to consider the 9 mm their dedicated bear gun, so be it. Not my cup of tea at all. In fact, my EDC for people defense is the .357 SP101. Stopping power is important for self defense situations with 2 legged predators and even more so when considering black bears. Yes, you "can" kill a bear with a stick, a rock, a log and a 9 mm but what are the statistical chances of success with those options?

I would go with 10 mm or .357 magnum with stout loads as the "bare" minimum of bear defense.
 
Today 10:13 PM
481
Quote:
Originally Posted by JShirley
It really would be terrific if people had some hint of a clue what they were talking about before they volunteered their opinion.
Well, gee...What fun would that be?


These threads, when they pop up, show that quite a few folks don't have a frame of reference from which to approach such concerns. It's difficult for the non-hunter (or someone who has hunted, but not the particular species in question) to visualize the dimensions and anatomy of an animal that they've (at best) only seen in zoo and make a determination as to what would be needed to resolve such a threat.

Service-caliber FMJs (depending upon weight and impact velocity), used where bears typically live (the woods), offer 24-36 inches of penetration- more than enough for what needs doing to a troublesome black bear.

I am not aware of any 9 mm that offers that kind of penetration. Here is list of several popular 9 mm loads and penetration with gel. Note this doesn't include the heavy bone seen in bears. If you are looking for 24-36 inches of penetration, even the .357 magnum lacks enough power to do that. You would need a .44 magnum to start if the 24-36 inch penetration is your criteria.

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/9mm/gel9.htm
 
Alaska, you're answering a question no-one's asking. This thread doesn't ask "What's the best handgun for bear defense?" Instead, the OP wants to know "Will my usual CCW stop a bear if I'm attacked?"

Considering the OP lives in the lower 48, is specifically asking about black bears, and doesn't seem to be asking about wandering through the deep woods, assuming good ammunition and reasonable skill, the answer is yes.

9x19mm FMJ does penetrate as much as 39 inches. If you had carefully looked at the link you posted, you would see there are no accurate measurements for FMJ penetration- because the test did not have enough gel block depth to catch the FMJs. All he can report is that it exceeded 23 inches.

An ideal (big) black bear dedicated defensive load would be similar to any other bear defense load- in other words, foolish and a distinct liability if your primary mission is defense against hostile humans in heavily populated areas.

John
 
Yesterday, 08:11 PM #1
JustSomeDude
Member

Dear JShirley,

Sir, with all due respect, I would refer you to the OP statement where he asked what is the "chance" that a 9 mm could stop a black bear. My comments in view of the OP are exactly within his question. As I noted above, if you are looking at the statistical analysis of 9 mm, i.e, the chance it will consistently stop a black bear, 9 mm is not my choice and I consider my .357 as the minimum caliber I would attempt that consistently.

Can a 9 mm stop a black bear? Yes, but once again, with all due respect, that was not the OP question.

As I also pointed out, the gel test does not take into consideration the heavy fur or heavy bones of a black bear. Yes, the 9 mm can kill a black bear, but so far, I have focussed on the statistical "chance" of it doing that consistently just as a .22 LR "can" kill a black bear but the chance of it do

(FYI - Heavily edited by staff :what:)

STAFF EDIT:
I see no evidence of any staff editing your post, but I am looking into it. It leaves fingerprints when we edit something that cannot be simply covered up. The last thing I see, before my edit, was that you edited the post at 2:59 PM.
 
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A friend's video of bear-baiting here in Alaska. (YouTube)

6 foot black bear @ 6" away, 9mm FMJ. The original plan was to pet the bear, then shoot it. He chickened out when it showed up, probably for the better. The skull is on display at the local Sportsman's Warehouse just above the handgun counter as a kind of counter to the "you need xxxxx caliber to kill a bear" folks. The bullet hole is right between the eyes 1/2" off of center.

So yeah, 9mm will work if it's what you've got and can place the shot.
 
I live in a location where there are many black bears. I shot one using a .270 Win rifle, hitting him in the neck and virtually breaking his neck. Gutted out, he weighed in at 165 pounds and was 4.5 years old as the game warden got my permission to remove a tooth for analysis.

Beginning several years ago, a family member who lives nine miles from here was putting bird seed out to feed the many wonderful species of birds we have here. On more than one occasion, this person observed a monster black bear eating the bird food. The bear had destroyed several bird feeders.

Not to be outdone, this relative dug with a post hole digger a hole below frost level and installed a 10" diameter concrete sonatube footing, reinforced with 1/2" rebar. He carefully planted his new 2" diameter galvanized iron pipe, plumb in the center of the footing, making sure the concrete entered up from the bottom of the open pipe. At the top, he branched off the 2" iron pipe with several smaller pipes, 1.5", 1.25", 1" and .75" respectively to essentially have a 'tree' of pipes onto which he hung no less than four individual feeders. This worked extremely well also, because the squirrels and chipmunks could not climb the freshly-painted shiny dark gray pipe.

This feeder lasted about two weeks. He came out one morning, walking the dog and found the feeder literally bent over and several cross-pipes near the top, completely torn off and located on the opposite side of his house.

At this point, he contacted the local game warden.

The local warden came and admitted this person did a terrific job at 'attempting' to keep the bear off the feeders. The warden went on to say there is a huge (approximate weight 450 pound) bear that has been frequenting the entire area. The bear is so large, bear hunters using dogs to tree the bear stopped using the dogs, as the bear was not frightened one bit by the barking nuisances, but, instead, the bear would simply take a swipe with its sharp claws and kill any dogs that the hunters were using to tree the bear. The bear had no reason to climb a tree as the bear was so large, it learned how to defend itself by killing the dogs that were chasing it.

I got permission from this person to hunt the property in search of this bear and my firearms of choice were a 12 gauge with a rifled slug barrel and saboted slugs and when I was handgun hunting it, my 500 S&W loaded at maximum load with Barnes 275g Triple Shock X Pistol Bullets (XPB). Even with those guns and that load, I was still a bit nervous, wondering what will happen when I see the bear and take a shot at it! In some ways, it is fortunate that I did not run into the bear on my many hunting days I spent there, as I don't feel like being a statistic.

When I read that people are using a 9mm to shoot bears, I laugh. Yes, you can kill one with a .22, if you hit it just right. I have seen .22 bullets ricochet off the thick head of woodchucks when they were not shot at just the right angle to penetrate.

What does one do for an encore when the 9mm bullet doesn't hit just right and perhaps just grazes the bear's flesh, or the bullet ricochets off the bear's skull where there may happen to be some thick bone at just the wrong angle?
 
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The OP asked if a point-blank headshot with his 9mm CCW would stop a black bear. With a high degree of probability, yes.
 
I agree totally with everyone's comments.

I wonder, though, what constitutes "a pretty point blank headshot...." as questioned by the OP.

In order to be "point-blank" does that not require the animal to be in extremely close proximity to the shooter, say, close enough that powder burns would be detected along with any bullet holes?

We are assuming that the bear is seen by the shooter, before the bear has a chance to do anything to the shooter. I don't understand how there could be a point blank shot at the bear without the bear being aware that it is in such close proximity to the shooter.

In all honesty, I don't think a normal, healthy black bear would allow itself to become within, say, feet, or even yards, of a shooter. Any black bear that will approach a human to get to the distance of a point blank shot in my opinion would be an "unhealthy" bear, possibly rabid or having some other kinds of neurological problems (e.g., so old it is nearly blind and has very little smelling capabilities left), unless it has been trained by eating out of people's hands.
 
Yes, that's completely correct. Many large predatory animals usually only threaten humans if they are having trouble finding food. As I pointed out earlier, this also means they're going to be weak and small.

And this is usually the case with problem bears in the US, except for the ones that have been fed by foolish tourists.

John
 
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