Black Powder 22 Shorts

[Johnm1]

I now have 5 revolvers that shoot 22 short black powder. A while ago I made a batch of 22 short BP by pulling some 22 shorts I had and replacing the smokeless with black powder. I didn't think there was a collet for the kinetic bullet puller that was small enough to hold a 22. So I drilled an appropriately sized hole in a 5' long 1x2 and pulled the bullets that way. They pulled pretty cleanly and I only had a few that were too deformed to use. The process was somewhat long and loud.

For this batch I found that I had a collet for the bullet puller small enough to hold a 22. But I found that most of the cases I pulled from the 22 short cartridges with the bullet puller were so deformed by the bullet most of the cases were too damaged to use.

Rather than going back to the 5' long 1x2 I tried to pull the bullets from some 60 grain sub-sonic LR cartridges that I have a thousand of. Because the 60 grain projectiles are so large these long rifle cartridges are loaded in short cases. The bullets are useless to me but the heavier bullet pulls out cleanly. All I have to do is flare the case mouth, charge, seat the bullet by hand and crimp. Here is a finished round



I use a modified wire stripper to crimp the heeled bullet. I also have a modified hole that will round a case if it has some damage. Basically a sizing ring. The cartridge below is in the sizing ring and the crimp ring is to the right.

 

[Thomasss]

Nice work. hope they shoot as good as they look. What kind and how much powder did you use?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I find this very interesting. I've always been told that pulling rimfire bullets with a kinetic puller would set off the primer. ? Not true?

I would be very interested in being able to pull .22 magnum bullets, and reducing the charge to a 750fps load for small game. If that is/was possible, I'd be getting me another Little Badger, but this time in .22Mag.

I love my .22LR Little Badger, and it shoots the CCI Quiets like a laser, but I'd like to have a little more power on tap should I desire it, when deep in the mountains.

Tell me more!

 

[Johnm1]

Nice work. hope they shoot as good as they look. What kind and how much powder did you use?

You know, I forgot to measure how much went in. Basically I filled the case with as much black powder as I could fit and still seat the bullet. I'll be making more this weekend and I'll be sure to measure the amount. I've read that a full charge of black powder under a 29 grain bullet is 2.3 or so grains. But I'll measure it.

I find this very interesting. I've always been told that pulling rimfire bullets with a kinetic puller would set off the primer. ? Not true?

I would be very interested in being able to pull .22 magnum bullets, and reducing the charge to a 750fps load for small game. If that is/was possible, I'd be getting me another Little Badger, but this time in .22Mag.

I love my .22LR Little Badger, and it shoots the CCI Quiets like a laser, but I'd like to have a little more power on tap should I desire it, when deep in the mountains.

Tell me more!

I never read that but my experience is that it doesn't. Maybe I should inviestigate this a little further. A detonation in the kinetic puller could be a real problem with broken shards of plastic flying about. I'll research it this evening when I get home. If there is something to that I'll revert back to the 5' long 1 x 2. I suspect that an explosion inside a 1x 2 would be less dramatic than inside the plastic kinetic puller.

The real trick, at least so far, has been to get a strong enough crimp on the bullet. And that really requires that the case mouth be undamaged. The crimps I'm putting on these black powder cartridges seem to be 'strong enough'. I'd have to think about crimping a 22 magnum though.

One thing for sure is that my reloads aren't as accurate as the factory rounds. I can't be as consistent crimping as a factory can be. Plus when your dealing with such a small amount of powder, even the smallest amount that spills out is a measurable amount compared to the overall charge. But, these little suicide special aren't really known for their accuracy and as long as i can hit the paper at card table distance I'm satisfied.

Now the not only make reloading kits for 22 LR but they also make them for 22 magnum. That would give you a sizing die and a crimping die that I'll have to assume are more consistent than what I'm doing by hand. I have a question into the manufacturer about 22 short loading dies. I know there are separate 22 short crimping dies available though probably not without ordering and having them manufactured.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Who makes reloading kits/dies for the .22mag? Never knowed that.

 

[Johnm1]

Who makes reloading kits/dies for the .22mag? Never knowed that.

https://22lrreloader.com/products/22mag-22-win-22-wrf-reloader-kit

 

[.455_Hunter]

How does their performance compare to a .22 CB Short? I wonder if the pressures are roughly equivalent or if the CB has a "spike" often seen in smokeless vs BP loads in larger rounds, even if the velocity is similar.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

https://22lrreloader.com/products/22mag-22-win-22-wrf-reloader-kit

Dang it Johnm, now I have to get one of those, AND another Little Badger. !!!! But thanks anyhow!

 

[Johnm1]

How does their performance compare to a .22 CB Short? I wonder if the pressures are roughly equivalent or if the CB has a "spike" often seen in smokeless vs BP loads in larger rounds, even if the velocity is similar.

From what i read the ammunition manufacturers attempted to replicate the black powder performance when they went to smokeless powder. I really can't confirm that is true or if they were successful in replicating that performance.

I posted this short video over in the Gunsmithing forum in this thread:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/yoc5RLaFQCaw6pXs9

S&W Model 1 - Latch Configuration/Cylinder Stop | The High Road

There is a theory that smokeless powder shooting the same bullet at the same velocity and presumably producing the same peak pressure produces peak pressure over a shorter period of time than the peak pressure of the black powder cartridge is produced. In the materials field this is called and 'impulse force'. The analogy is the guardrails that are designed to 'peel' apart when hit by an automobile. The force is spread over a longer period of time thus reducing the final forces acting on the driver compared to the same automobile hitting the concrete abutment of a bridge. I'm not so sure that analogy is really appropriate to the case of pressures acting inside a firearm chamber though. In the guardrail analogy the peak force on the projectile (automobile) is definitely less. Where as in the firearm we assume that the peak force acting on the projectile (bullet and in this case the chamber/barrel) is equal just over a longer/shorter period of time. Maybe the peak pressure in a black powder cartridge is lower but because it acts on the bullet longer it has time to accelerate it to the same speed as the smokeless cartridge. But I don't have the equipment to determine if the peak pressure is the same if all else is the same. If the peak pressure is the same it may not matter how long that pressure is maintained. I'm not a materials engineer and I can't answer the question though I always stay on the safe side and shoot black powder in firearms designed for black powder. What the firearm was made form plays a big part in why I always choose to be on the safe side.

That being said, the video doesn't prove anything on its own. I think that it shows that the smokeless powder charge (the first one in the video) has a shorter period of pressure compared to the black powder cartridge. But being I can't measure the pressure no less how many milli-seconds the pressure last, all I can do is look at the video and decide based on what I see.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I would expect the CB smokeless and the BP .22 shorts to be similar (either by intention or coincidence), but the modern high-velocity .22 short (say by CCI) would be a NO GO for me in an early S&W tip-up.

 

[Johnm1]

I've always been told that pulling rimfire bullets with a kinetic puller would set off the primer.

I never read that but my experience is that it doesn't. Maybe I should inviestigate this a little further.

Well, we don't know what we don't know. Now I have read it. Internet knowledge does indicate that pulling rimfire bullets with a kinetic bullet puller is dangerous. Apparently the instructions that come with the bullet pullers also indicate that they should not be used with rimfire ammunition.

The 5" 1x2 uses the same concept so other than being further away and the part that contains the live round is a little sturdier I'm not sure even that would be much safer. Maybe I can figure a way to shield the puller, either the hammer type or the 5' 1x2 To contain a mishap. I bet I've pulled a hundred of these so far without mishap. Gotta think of a safe way to pull the bullets because this is the only source of black powder 22 shorts that I know of.

 

[hawg]

I find this very interesting. I've always been told that pulling rimfire bullets with a kinetic puller would set off the primer. ? Not true?

I suppose it would be possible but methinks you'd have to whack it way beyond the force it would take to pull the bullet. I know for a fact a loaded .22 LR round wont hurt the plastic parts in a vacuum cleaner when it goes off.

 

[Johnm1]

I know for a fact a loaded .22 LR round wont hurt the plastic parts in a vacuum cleaner when it goes off.

Now that's destructive testing taken to the extreme.

 

[Johnm1]

What kind and how much powder did you use?

Basically I filled the case with as much black powder as I could fit and still seat the bullet. I'll be making more this weekend and I'll be sure to measure the amount. I've read that a full charge of black powder under a 29 grain bullet is 2.3 or so grains. But I'll measure it

The 22 short case holds 2.2 grains of 4F powder and still seat the bullet all the way down. The size and quantities are too small to even estimate compression. Oddly the 22 BB cap case holds 1.8 grains of 4F with the ball seated. The reason is the BB cap case holds so much is the ball measures at 16 grains and barely enters the case. While the 29 grain bullet heel takes up quite a bit of space/volume in the short case.



Notice the 22 short case is one that was damaged while pulling the bullet.

 

[44 Dave]

Wanting to "clear the shop"! I have put .22 longs in the bench vice, aiming down.then hit it with a hammer. The case splits and there is no force behind the bullet. Lot of noise, but very little danger.
The point being, it may not be the "safest", but the chance of getting hurt-slim to none!

 

[Jim Watson]

There were some intrepid experimenters hand loading black powder .22 Stevens Long, Rifle for use in good rifles. Reports on the Shiloh board and Castboolits.
Armscor had imported some primed empty cases so they were able to just load without having to pull bullets and discard nitro powder. They loaded from scratch with 4F and Null B with cast bullets. Results were good, a target with 50+ rounds from clean was about as good as the guy's Marlin 39A would shoot anything.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

It's a bit of an urban legend of misinformation that cartridges "fired", set off, cooked off, etc. outside of a barrel are all that dangerous.
There was an extensive study and report done decades ago on rounds cooking off in a house fire and the danger to firemen.
It was determined that most rounds didn't penetrate the cardboard box box they were packaged in.

The loud scary "bangs" were the primers the actual powder didn't do all that much.
Not sure that they even addressed BP specifically, but the concept is the same.
The powder needs to be confined to produce full energy and burn completely.

Here is a good video by SAAMI that proves the point -

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Used to be an old joke to walk up to the campfire and throw a handful of bullets into the fire, (among some young long-haired biker types) and watch everybody scatter and run for the hills. The cases just popped off the bullets, and at most a case or two might fly a few feet from the fire. Did make a nice loud pop though. Now, I have no idea who those jokers were. I just heard about it from my sister's brother's cousin's friend. I was no where near there. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Nobody can prove it. Way before cell phones when everyone became a snitch.

 

[Johnm1]

The following are the results of an experiment. The experiment contradicts both internet wisdom and the manufacturer's recommendations for use of a kinetic bullet puller. This is not a recommendation for you to try this or to imply that this is safe. Although my experiment showed the risks observed were minimal, it is entirely possible that the risks were not all exposed in my experiment and you may be subject to further risks of injury or damage. Please accept these test results as just that. Test results. Again, I am not offering this as proof it is safe to pull Rimfire ammunition with a kinetic bullet puller. You must evaluate the results of my experiment and any decision you make based on that evaluation you will be responsible for. NOTE: all but one set of 4 tests was done using factory 22 CB shorts and these results may not transfer to either 22 LR or 22 Magnum.

Based on the discussion in this thread I devised an experiment to see if I could ignite a 22 shorts by pulling the bullet with a kinetic bullet puller. I used 22 CB Short producing 710 fps with a 29 grain bullet. I pulled 80 rounds for this test. I created a screen to protect myself from any sideways projectiles and wore safety glasses. Had I thought of this before I left work on Friday I would have brought home a face shield.

With the live round placed properly in the kinetic puller I was unable to ignite the primer no matter how hard I hit the puller. Here is the live round properly inserted i to the puller



Every one of the cases pulled with the live round properly inserted came out cleanly with no deformations.

I was able to ignite the primer if the case was inserted improperly in the puller. Here is a live round inserted improperly



When inserted like this the primer ignited every time. It also deformed the case



The failure when the primer ignited was anticlimactic. I could hear the primer ignite separately from the sound of the puller hitting the concrete and the case was ejected at great speed out of the puller straight back. There was no damage to the plastic puller and as best as i could judge the bullet didn't hit the end of the puller with any more force than it did when the primer didn't ignite.

Here is an oddity. Even though the primer ignited the recovered case still had priming compound in it and did fire when I tested the now empty case. That was true in 3 out of 4 ignition events. The 4th case launched to places unknown.

In the below photograph the cartridge is still inserted improperly but I could not ignite the primer when inserted this way though very often the case would be deformed like the picture above.




I did test 4 of the 22 LR sub-sonics. These have a 60 grain bullet loaded in a 22 short case so they will fit in a 22 LR chamber. These reacted the same as the shorts did except the case exited the puller at a greater speed than the shorts did. To my uncalibrated eye much faster.

You'll have to make your own decisions on the safety of pulling a rimfire with a kinetic bullet puller. But these are my results.

 

[Johnm1]

I tried to record the differences between a black powder cartridge and one loaded with smokeless using the slow motion feature on my phone with a stopwatch in the background. Turns out the slo-mo doesn’t record enough frames per second to be of any use.
The only thing I got from tha test was this screen shot.

That’s my H&A that I’m using as a test bed firing a reloaded black powder 22 short.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Yeah, but a pretty cool screen-shot! Wait a minute...screen "shot"?

 

[Johnm1]

Although my attempt to compare the black powder versus the smokeless powder cartridges using the slow motion on my phone was unsuccessful, it isn't true that I didn't learn anything from that operation. I learned that reloading these 22 short black powder cartridges is going to be more of a challenge then I expected.

How to charge and crimp are a real challenge with these tiny little cases. Crimping is made more difficult by the heeled bullet. The hand tool created from The Wire Strippers leave a lot to be desired. I wasn't too concerned about inconsistent crimping Force as it relates to accuracy. All of the guns these will be shot in are across the card table guns. But they have to be safe. The amount of powder in each case and the crimping force on the bullet are critical to producing a safe cartridge. I think I will open a new thread in the reloading forum specifically for the operation of reloading for a black powder Rimfire cartridge.

Despite the fact that I checked every cartridge I made today by pulling on the bullet I had two bullets dislodge from their case. And not under recoil. I haven't figured out exactly what happened but I am removing a stuck bullet From the barrel of my H&A. I think I will be using a more substantial test bed for my future tests. Possibly a bolt action 22 rifle, a modern(ish) 22 LR revolver or my Stevens tip up. All offer significantly stronger Chambers.

My procedure was to load each case full to overflowing with 4F and tap the case to compress the powder via gravity. This left enough room to seat the bullet with what I thought was a little compression. I don't think it was very accurate or consistent. I see now that I'll have to assure more compression to be safe. I'll also need to figure a more consistent means of crimping. The right answer is to get the appropriate dies for both seating and crimping. As it is now I have to hold the bullet down on top of the powder while I'm crimping the case. With more powder/compression it becomes more difficult to hold the bullet down while crimping. Proper dies may or may not help with that.

I was hoping this was going to be easy. But as Monty Williams is fond of saying, "Everything you want is on the other side of hard."

 

[hawg]

Wanting to "clear the shop"! I have put .22 longs in the bench vice, aiming down.then hit it with a hammer. The case splits and there is no force behind the bullet. Lot of noise, but very little danger.
The point being, it may not be the "safest", but the chance of getting hurt-slim to none!

When I was a kid of about 7 or 8 we used to put a .22 LR on a brick and throw another brick on it. They just made a little pop and the bullet did sometimes clear the brick but that was all. The case was dented where the other brick hit it but was still lying on the brick in the same place it was placed.

 

[Jim Watson]

Here is a list of posts by experimenters in black powder .22s that I compiled for a guy on TFL.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6915426&postcount=20

 

[Johnm1]

Here is a list of posts by experimenters in black powder .22s that I compiled for a guy on TFL.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6915426&postcount=20

Thanks for the list. It took me this long to read all of them.