S&W Model 1 - Latch Configuration/Cylinder Stop

[Johnm1]

New acquisition that I knew needed some work to make function. The parts that need replacing are available from Jack first. The parts are: Hand spring, Cylinder Stop Spring, Latch Spring, and probably a new Latch. All but the latch are new made replacements Finish challanged but with a new cylinder stop and hand spring it will time and lock up well. The hinge is toght. Here is the revolver.



I have not been able to find a diagram/schematic. I assume that the latch/spring is retained by a screw but there isn't a screw where I think there should be. A general arrangement of the latch. The place I think there should be a screw is the uppermost circle. Notice the screw appears to be cut off.



The question is if there should be a screw here? Here is a head on picture that hopefully shows it better. Again, the uppermost circle. Note that I can scrape what I think is the cut off screw easily with a screwdriver. So I'm supposing that the screw broke off and the hole was filled. Possibly with solder. Its that soft.



After we figure this part out we'll discuss the cylinder stop spring.

 

[Col. Harrumph]

I assume you've checked out gunpartscorp?

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/smith-wesson/revolvers-sw/no-1-tip-up

 

[Clemson]

There is a parts diagram and a set of instructions in "Antique Firearms Assembly/Disassembly" by David R. Chicoine. In my copy it is on Page 172.

Bill Jacobs

Antique Firearms by jakefromclemson, on Flickr

 

[Johnm1]

I assume you've checked out gunpartscorp?


https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/smith-wesson/revolvers-sw/no-1-tip-up

That was the first place I looked. Fortunately Jack First has what I need.

There is a parts diagram and a set of instructions in "Antique Firearms Assembly/Disassembly" by David R. Chicoine. In my copy it is on Page 172.

Thanks Clemson - I'd go broke on books alone if i bought one for every gun I try to fix. That one I just might need to get.

I did find an answer to my question on the internet by watching videos of the model 1, 1 1/2, and 2.



I'm pretty sure this is from a 1 1/2 in 32 RF. But I suspect it was pretty standard. But it shows a screw where i have what looks like a cut off screw. I'm pretty sure the hole was filled with some type of solder as it scratches easily with the point of a screwdriver. I'm going to try to use heat to see if I can melt out what ever is covering the broken screw. Then I'll see what I need to do to remove the screw. This isn't gong to be fun. As much as I hate to farm stuff like this out, I may need to get a professional to remove the broken screw or drill it out. I'm pretty sure my HF drill press isn't precise enough to do this type of work.

The latch won't positively hold the action closed and the latch is 'soft'. Meaning the spring doesn't seem to put much force on the latch and the moving part of the latch doesn't appear to move enough to positively mate with the latching surface. I can't see any damage to the mating surfaces. So I think that the broken screw doesn't properly actuate the lmoving part of the latch.

 

[Johnm1]

My suspicion was partially correct. The screw hole was filled with either solder or possibly lead. It melted out with minimal heat from a propane torch. Better yet, there wasn't a broken screw and the threads were in tact. So I'm fitting a replacement screw. I'm not sure what the person who installed the solder was thinking. The spring was also a replacement and not particularly appropriate for the installation. I'll see if I have an appropriate spring in my bag-o-springs.

It seems that the movable part of the latch might be a replacement and not fitted to the gun. Although the latch fits easily in the notch of the frame when placed there loose, it takes an incredible amount of force to push the latch into the notch in the frame when the latch is inserted into its recess on the barrel assembly.



I'll smoke the latch to see where the conflict is. But it'll have to wait until after the Suns game.

FYI - thanks ti @mizer for helping me get the book. It has been invaluable.

 

[Johnm1]

Another bit of good luck. I had assumed that the hand spring was either broken or missing when I received the firearm. But a long soak in the sonic cleaner must have freed up some gunk (very technical term) and the hand now responds correctly. I have one on the way but I'll just keep in reserve.

I have now taken the cylinder stop assembly (parts 6 through 11) apart and for the life of me can't figure out how the cylinder stop spring is supposed to 'pull' the cylinddr stop down. Maybe it will be apparent when the replacement spring arrives.



The latch is now fitted though I don't have a 3mm coil spring to replace the ill fitting/non-functioning spring that wa in there. But, to my surprise, barrel lock up is rock solid. It would not lock up when I received it.

Once the cylinder stop spring arrives on Saturday the firearm will be fully functional. It will be fired with hand loaded black powder 22 shorts!

 

[Johnm1]

So it looks like the cylinder stop spring pushes up on the forward part of the cylinder stop in front of the cylinder stop pin. There is just so little space for that spring to push up on, it seems a poor way to design it. But what do I know.



My spring seems to be all there but it is a 150 year old leaf spring. Its possible there is a tip or two missing from my spring. I'll know better when the replacement arrives on Saturday.

 

[Johnm1]

Parts arrived today. This is the first time Jack First has let me down. The latch spring they sent was the wrong diameter. It was too large. For now the latch remains closed via friction. I won't final fit the latch until I have the correct spring. Im going to try the local Remote Control hobby shop near me tomorrow. They might have a 3 mm coil spring.

The cylinder lock spring had to be bent to provide the force to push the cylinder lock into place. As expected the cylinder locks in place without any movement when cocked. It was an odd spring in that it exhibited no spring action while I was bending it. It appears that it is just a thin section of regular steel and provides spring force just due to the nature of its 'thinness' . Although the cylinder lock up is dead locked with the hammer back, with the hammer forward the cylinder can be rotated by a small force of the fingers. I am real leary about bending the spring further to provide more force with the hammer forward. I've had my experiences breakig thin leaf springs before. And i dont know if the cylinder was designed to rotate freely. Although I strongly suspect the cylinder should be locked when the hammer is forward, I'd like to confirm that before I bend it further. I'm pretty sure @Driftwood Johnson has one of these. Maybe he can answer that question.

Here is a short video of the cylinder lock up

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WEPTocQFWP78YPyq9

Here is the function test using blanks.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/STZq62xR5GVtmcc69

I get good hammer strikes.



It just amazes me that this firearm is this tight after 150 years of service. Once I acquire the correct latch spring this firearm will function as it did when new. Although severely finish challenged, the rifling is strong but a little pitted. I suspect it will shoot as accurately as it was designed to. Accuracy expectations are pretty low.

 

[Johnm1]

Not being satisfied with the oversized spring I checked the local hobby shop. No luck but the salesperson had a sugestion I would have bet money against working. I took another oversized spring from my box-O-springs and tempered it with my propane torch. Using my fingers I wrapped it around a rod to achieve a smaller diameter then hardened it using the propane torch. It is working! The spring is a bit ugly and I'll replace it when Jack First sends the correct spring.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Mkr2CMTSYHbmoYRj7

Here is the latch screw I made to replace the solder/lead the previous owner used.



A scale reference


EDIT TO ADD: This was a failed attempt to cut the slot but it is the same size as the final screw.

 

[gobsauce]

Gah I need to see you shoot it!

 

[Johnm1]

Gah I need to see you shoot it!

It will be shot! I need to brew up some black powder 22 shorts though. I bet each one takes 5 minutes to put together. I really need to invest in the dies. Crimping is the bugger to do.

 

[WestKentucky]

My model 1 eats colibri ammo. It’s too long for the cylinder so the way I do it is to lay them one by one on a table and using a razor knife I pop the nose of the bullet off with ease. If I cut nearly flush with the case moth then they work pretty well.

 

[Johnm1]

My model 1 eats colibri ammo.

That’s interesting. Colibri’s are primer only, correct?

Does your first model have the hinge on the hammer? If not, does the cylinder lock tight when the hammer is forward? It seems to me that the hammer with the hump would naturally raise the cylinder lock when forward. This means that the cylinder is barely locked at the moment the hammer strikes the rim of the cartridge. Though I can press down on the cylinder lock when the hammer is forward and it will positively lock the cylinder. This leads me to believe I need to bend the spring a little more. It just makes me nervous.

 

[Mizar]

Unless your aim is a historical accurate load, modern .22 Short won't hurt that revolver - it's safe to shoot them.

 

[Johnm1]

Unless your aim is a historical accurate load, modern .22 Short won't hurt that revolver - it's safe to shoot them.

I am not concerned with making the rounds to be historically correct. I tend to shoot only what the firearm was designed to shoot. In this case black powder cartridges. I'm sure this firearm has had a bun h of smokeless rounds through it and there doesn't appear to be any ill effects from that. But it was designed for black powder and that is what I choose to use. I'm not concerned about blowing the firearm up. And based on the current state of the firearm and suspcting itbhas fired many smokeless rounds, I could conclude smokeless was safe. Lots of people do it but I choose not to shoot 32 ACP in my 32 Long revolvers for the same reason.

I can't do the math on peak pressures and and pressure curves. But I do have a video comparing black 22 short vs. Smokeless 22 short and there is a marked difference in the recoil impulse. Enough to shake an action loose? Maybe not. But it's 150 years old why chance it. Obviously I'm not concerned with 1 or 2 smokeless rounds because the video uses an old H&A spur trigger 22 that is no less than 104 years old.

I'll try to find that video.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Parts arrived today. This is the first time Jack First has let me down. The latch spring they sent was the wrong diameter. It was too large. For now the latch remains closed via friction. I won't final fit the latch until I have the correct spring. Im going to try the local Remote Control hobby shop near me tomorrow. They might have a 3 mm coil spring.

The cylinder lock spring had to be bent to provide the force to push the cylinder lock into place. As expected the cylinder locks in place without any movement when cocked. It was an odd spring in that it exhibited no spring action while I was bending it. It appears that it is just a thin section of regular steel and provides spring force just due to the nature of its 'thinness' . Although the cylinder lock up is dead locked with the hammer back, with the hammer forward the cylinder can be rotated by a small force of the fingers. I am real leary about bending the spring further to provide more force with the hammer forward. I've had my experiences breakig thin leaf springs before. And i dont know if the cylinder was designed to rotate freely. Although I strongly suspect the cylinder should be locked when the hammer is forward, I'd like to confirm that before I bend it further. I'm pretty sure @Driftwood Johnson has one of these. Maybe he can answer that question.

Here is a short video of the cylinder lock up

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WEPTocQFWP78YPyq9

Here is the function test using blanks.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/STZq62xR5GVtmcc69

I get good hammer strikes.

View attachment 1076972

It just amazes me that this firearm is this tight after 150 years of service. Once I acquire the correct latch spring this firearm will function as it did when new. Although severely finish challenged, the rifling is strong but a little pitted. I suspect it will shoot as accurately as it was designed to. Accuracy expectations are pretty low.

I have an idea for your spring... take a tire valve core apart and use the spring from it, you can get a pack of the things for under 2.00 bucks at Wally World.

 

[Johnm1]

take a tire valve core apart and use the spring from it,

Now there is an out of the box idea. I may do that this morning. I'm still going to have Jack First send me another. While I'm at it I'm going to have them send another cylinder stop spring so I can bend one more to see if it will lock up the cylinder with the hammer forward. At least I'll have a replacement if it breaks. They aren't expensive.

 

[Johnm1]

I'll try to find that video.

This doesn’t prove anything other than there is a difference in recoil impulse. My math goes up to introductory calculus but I don’t have the technical ability to solve the question if the same weight bullet traveling the same velocity and reported to have the same peak pressure assumedly over a longer period of time impacts the materials of the firearm differently.

hhttps://photos.app.goo.gl/yoc5RLaFQCaw6pXs

This just shows what it shows. Obviously I’m not concerned with a round or two. My gut tells me that a steady diet of smokeless will batter the action more.

Not sure the video will work.

Edit to add: The first shot is a smokeless standard velocity the last 2 are full cases of black powder.

 

[gobsauce]

This doesn’t prove anything other than there is a difference in recoil impulse. My math goes up to introductory calculus but I don’t have the technical ability to solve the question if the same weight bullet traveling the same velocity and reported to have the same peak pressure assumedly over a longer period of time impacts the materials of the firearm differently.

hhttps://photos.app.goo.gl/yoc5RLaFQCaw6pXs

This just shows what it shows. Obviously I’m not concerned with a round or two. My gut tells me that a steady diet of smokeless will batter the action more.

Not sure if the video will work. I have to post the reply to find out.

It works. You actually shared it to me via Google, and I replied.

But yes, i see what you're saying. The recoil impulse is noticably different, and I can see where the worry would come from.

Besides, i think there's just something special about shooting a historical firearm historically accurate.

 

[Johnm1]

I wonder if anyone else can see? I accidentally have 2 Google accounts and Gob joined this one. The intent was for everyone to be able to see my videos without joining anything. Technology sometimes gets the best of me.

 

[Johnm1]

While I'm at it I'm going to have them send another cylinder stop spring so I can bend one more to see if it will lock up the cylinder with the hammer forward. At least I'll have a replacement if it breaks.

Here is an interesting observation. With cartridges in the chamers the hammer actually touches the rear of the cartridge, scary thought but that is what they designed, essentially locking the cylinder in place. So possibly it doesn't lock the cylinder in place with the hammer forward and no cartridges in place. I'd still like to hear from others that have them.

FYI - this was well before the rebounding hammer and there is no half cock. S&W indicated in their revolver should be carried with the hammer resting between cartridges. And that does work (cartridges in photo are blanks)

 

[WestKentucky]

That’s interesting. Colibri’s are primer only, correct?

Does your first model have the hinge on the hammer? If not, does the cylinder lock tight when the hammer is forward? It seems to me that the hammer with the hump would naturally raise the cylinder lock when forward. This means that the cylinder is barely locked at the moment the hammer strikes the rim of the cartridge. Though I can press down on the cylinder lock when the hammer is forward and it will positively lock the cylinder. This leads me to believe I need to bend the spring a little more. It just makes me nervous.

Yes, colibri is primer only, and the bullet is a tiny lead pellet. I have loaded full colibri ammo in the gun and fired it but it’s a terribly unsafe and awkward thing to do. You have to cock the gun with the cylinder out then insert the cylinder with the loaded round in position for the nose of the bullet to actually be in the forcing cone of the barrel.

Hinge on hammer? I assume you mean the cylinder stop hand which is mounted on top. It seems an intentional feature to unlock the cylinder with the hammer as there is no mechanical connection to otherwise unlock the cylinder for it to index the next round, so if it starts unlatched, latches when indexed, and then only unlatches as it is actually firing then the gun has done its job on keeping timing until the shot, and unlatched to index the next as the hammer struck the round to fire it. There is not enough time to appreciably get out of time in between the unlatching and firing of the round, so the safety concern there is sensible but negligible as well.

 

[Johnm1]

Hinge on hammer? I assume you mean the cylinder stop hand which is mounted on top.

Actually no. The first issue had a different hammer. I can't find a picture so the best I can do is show you what I read.


From https://sportsmansvintagepress.com/read-free/smith-wesson-hand-guns/smith-wesson-tip-up-revolvers/


I believe the hammer changed during the second issue.

It seems an intentional feature to unlock the cylinder with the hammer as there is no mechanical connection to otherwise unlock the cylinder for it to index the next round, so if it starts unlatched, latches when indexed, and then only unlatches as it is actually firing then the gun has done its job on keeping timing until the shot,

This is what I'm thinking as well. Though I believe the split spring may allow the cylinder stop to drop and lock the cylinder. The reason I am not convinced you/I are correct is that if I push down slightly on the cylinder stop as the hammer drops the cylinder remains locked. I think the hammer is supposed to travel between the legs of the split spring when the hammer is traveling forward.

 

[gobsauce]

These old guns were designed really really weird, compared to their more modern counterparts.

 

[Johnm1]

These old guns were designed really really weird/QUOTE]

There really was no reason to design it this way. Colt’s patent had expired so they could have used what their predecessors used on the bottom of the frame. But it does work though weird.