Black powder 7.62 x 54R

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Gaucho Gringo

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I got to thinking again(I know it will get you trouble) about loading black powder in the MN 7.62 x 54R. The rifles are cheap enough to have one dedicated to shooting black powder. I did some Googling and found a lot of people don't think it feasible. Some said that you could not stuff enough BP in the case to get the bullet down the barrel. I know you couldn't even approach smokeless velocity, but I'm sure you could get somewhere in the neighborhood of 14-1500 fps. I did some checking, a 32 WIN Spl case was originally made to be reloaded with BP. It's case capacity is 45 gr H2O, the case capacity of the 7.62 x 54R is 64.2 gr H2O making it over 1\4 larger in case capacity. If a 32 Spl can fire a BP round just fine, why wouldn't a 7.62 X 54R do it as well? I realize the cleanup aspect of it as I shoot BP revolvers. I was thinking a full load of FFg, lubed wad and .313 lead "soupcan" bullet. I want to shoot BP in a rifle without it costing a lot.
 
I don't think it would get stuck, if that's a concern load a few singly and check the barrel for obstructions after every shot. I think it'll work just fine. Have fun! :D

By the way, would FFFg be more appropriate? I use it for my .45 and .32 rifles, a 7.62mm bullet is as you said about 31 caliber. It would increase the velocity also.
 
The .30-30 Winchester and .303 British were both originally black powder cartridges. So, for that matter, was the .22 rimfire.

I used to shoot 7.65x53 Mauser with FFg. Worked fine with 180 grain Speer jacketed bullets. The shooters downwind didn't appreciate it much, though...
 
"Loading the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge" by Paul A. Matthews is full of good stuff.

Especially the importance of the "grease cookie" and where it belongs in the cartridge case. It's not to lubricate the bullet or bore. It's to keep the fouling soft, so subsequent rounds can be chambered w/out obstruction. Hard cake builds up in the throat, in front of the chamber, and pushes the bullet back into the case upon chambering. Sometimes after just the first shot. Or, at worst, won't allow chambering.

A grease cookie, separated by a perishable barrier, over the powder, keeps the fouling soft for continued chambering. The cookie vaporizes into the fouling, keeping it soft. There's more to it in the above book. And it works!

The info in this book is intended for original design BP cartridges . The principles still apply to smokeless rounds loaded w/BP. The shoulder at the neck-down can be troublesome, in smokeless high powered cases, due to the different diameters. Most of the old BP cartridges were(are) fairly straight sided. Even the old bottle-necks are not that acute.

Obtaining velocities over 1300fps may be tuff. Ya wouldn't want 'em anyway, w/soft lead.

There's good info at the LASC (Los Angeles Silhouette Club) website too.

Kindest Regards,
Doak
 
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The .30-30 Winchester and .303 British were both originally black powder cartridges.
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Slight correction here. The .30-30 was never factory loaded with BP. Along with the .25-35 Winchester, it was one of the first two American smokeless powder sporting cartridges.
 
Bottleneck blackpowder cartridges are tricky, and need to be full enough so the powder is compressed, so there is no air gap between the powder and bullet. The only one I've tried is the .45 caliber Martini .577-450, which needs both a felt wad and a grease cookie over the powder to get the right compression on a load of 2F BP.
 
Go for it, one of these days when I'm ready to take down a 1911 to the very last screw I'm gonna make some smoke with one.
 
I've been shooting a Swiss Vetterli .41, model 1881, using FFG. The rifle started with BP, then was switched to smokeless. Now, many shooters use BP or smokeless and both work fine.
The cases are formed from Winchester .348 brass.
I do not use a lube cookie but I lube the bullet when loading the cartridge, then spray the barrel with PAM every five shots. It is amazing how clean it keeps the barrel. After shooting, I run a wet patch a few times, then a dry one, then coat the barrel with Bore Butter. It's clean before I get it home.
My Mosin Nagan might be fun to shoot with BP. It would certainly kick less. I shoot the Vetterli single-shot, even though it has a 13 round tubular mag, so I don't crimp the case.
It's worth a try, as long as you can seat the bullet on the powder and compress it.
 
Foto Joe said:
.....one of these days when I'm ready to take down a 1911 to the very last screw I'm gonna make some smoke with one.
Click to expand...

A local shooting buddy did this with his "Wild Bunch" 1911 to use at our monthly meets. The small amount of powder that .45acp holds required a swap of the recoil spring to one of the lightest around so it would cycle correctly.

It sure was good at making SMOKE though.... :D
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foto Joe
.....one of these days when I'm ready to take down a 1911 to the very last screw I'm gonna make some smoke with one.
Click to expand...

BCRider said:
A local shooting buddy did this with his "Wild Bunch" 1911 to use at our monthly meets. The small amount of powder that .45acp holds required a swap of the recoil spring to one of the lightest around so it would cycle correctly.

It sure was good at making SMOKE though....
Click to expand...

Joe, no need to take it down to the last screw just cause you're using BP. My 45ACP BP rounds are cleaner than using Unique

And BC, 19 gr fffg under a 180 gr RN bullet works just fine. I've used that load a few times in WB matches. Have also shot 18 gr T7 under a 160 grain RN with success. Both loads cycle correctly using the stock recoil spring in an AMT Hardballer.
 
Some said that you could not stuff enough BP in the case to get the bullet down the barrel.
Click to expand...
We shoot BP cartridge at the local club (any gun, any cartridge, as long as its BP or BP substitute; replica Sharps with .45-70 dominate, but 1888 8mm Commission Mauser, .30-30 Winchester, etc are used with BP.)

I tried black powder and Pyrodex with cast lead lubed bullets in my Type 53 Mosin 7.62x54R (had saved some Hansen boxer primed brass). The bullets definitely made it down the barrel and to the target con gusto, just not enough velocity for the rate of twist of the barrel to really stabilize the weight of bullet I had.

I also have used with some success .30-30 Winchester with PyrodexRS and with 777 and jacketed channelured bullets. Chrono'd at ~1400 fps IIRC using case full to shoulder, bullet slightly compressing charge. Also 6.5 Carcano (that case holds volume equivalent 50 grains BP substitute).

Some said that you could not stuff enough BP in the case to get the bullet down the barrel. is the kind of opinion you get from armchair experts who don't need range or field experience, they just know what they know. Gunshops and barbershops are full of 'em.
 
I believe the 7.62x54 was developed as a smokeless round and that 1907 was when the cartridge was given a spitzer (pointed) bullet rather than the original round nose loading. This is about the time "everybody" got the word that pointy bullets stay above the speed of sound further than round nose bullets of the same weight and started to change over (remember the .30-06? the .30-03 had a round nose bullet and different shoulder geometry and length)

Some sources ( and we have argued before) indicate that while the .30-30 was a smokeless round that Winchester produced the .32 Special to use older bullet molds from earlier .32 rifle use with BP and that explains the difference in rifling pitch in the early .32 Special vs .30-30 WCF.

Yes, M-N ammo is cheap......not as cheap as it was even a year ago and believe it or not it will eventually run out. But this sounds more like a just for fun project.

I have seen a report of .30-06 using BP and lead bullets during one of the world wars when civilian shooters had difficulty obtaining loaded ammo or even smokeless powder. I have no idea how it worked or how they were loaded. Someone with a collection of American Rifleman from say 1942 to 1946 might dig through them to see if any of the little side bar articles mention such.

Why the heck hasn't NRA offered a CD or even chip collection of every Arms and the Man and American Rifleman that contains everything including covers and ads and is searchable the way National Geographic has? NG even offers updates after a bit at reasonable prices.

I would fork over the money for such a collection in a heart beat if kept at the NG rates and I bet NRA would make a handy profit.

I'll bet it is the NRA lawyers worried about the possibility of someone using 70 year old load data with current powders and primers that has them scared of producing such.....so add a banner to each page warning that handloading with old data should not be attempted.

Wow, can't believe I am keyboard babbling this early in the AM.......

-kBob
 
There was a good deal of work done 5-10 years ago with black powder in .303 British to recoup the pre-Cordite ammo. Loading high performance black powder ammo for a bottleneck cartridge is a challenge, there were arsenal tools and procedures you cannot readily duplicate at home. You can probably still have fun, though; and no reason it won't work as well in Russian as well as British surplus.
 
The 7.62x54R was originally a black powder round. The smokeless loading was developed around 1907, I believe.
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No it wasn't. It was loaded with smokeless from 1891. In 1908, the Russian Army replaced the 210 grain round nose bullet with a 147 grain spitzer.
 
How much in each for the gallery loads?

I would not mind trying this. Earlier attempts at cast were splitting necks on my brass.

How does your brass hold up with this?

All I have is Pyrodex, I suppose 40 or 50 grains via volume would work. What do you use TheOtherWaldo?
 
I treated it much like a pistol load - 25 grains and a cotton twist on the low end, about 40 grains (one spout load) on the upper end for the SMLE. Things fouled pretty quickly, as I used very little lube - usually just a mix of Crisco and beeswax poured in around the bullet's base and cookie-cut with a headless cartridge case. There wasn't much texture on the pistol bullets to hold the lube. Fun to shoot, though!
 
I would think that big old fat case would hold 45 or 50 grains of black powder. If you can get enough compression on it I would think it might make a pretty good load.
 
Fingers McGee said:
....(in reply to black powder in .45acp)...And BC, 19 gr fffg under a 180 gr RN bullet works just fine. I've used that load a few times in WB matches. Have also shot 18 gr T7 under a 160 grain RN with success. Both loads cycle correctly using the stock recoil spring in an AMT Hardballer.
Click to expand...

I seem to recall that he used the regular 230gn bullets which would have left a lot less room for powder. I'll ask him next time I see him if I can remember. I do recall his mentioning that he had to go to one of the softest springs to get it to cycle consistently.

I can certainly see that if you're managing to cram 19'ish gns into the case that you'd get some life out of it.... :D
 
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