Black Powder Cartridge Range Day

[Johnm1]

Actually, probably two days. All will be shot with BP cartridge. Top to bottom: S&W 44 Double Action, S&W 38 Double Action, S&W 32 Double Action, S&W 32 Single Action Meriden 32 DA.


This will be their full function tests. I have not shot these yet. The 44 DA could have been shot in double action when I got it but wouldn't hold on single action. It holds now. Both the 38 and 32 DAs were non-functional when I got them. The stories of the repairs on thes, and the Meriden, are in the Gunsmithing forum.

The 32 Single Action needed no work. I just haven't been able to shoot it yet. I paid about full retail for the 38 SA for a gun with replacement grips. Turns out the grips are Mastodon and worth about what I paid for the gun. Even a blind squirrel........

The Meriden was a total junker but the wife liked it, so we brought it back to shooting condition. The 32s are loaded with either a 310 or 315 round ball over a full case of 3f compressed. Somebody on this forum suggested that and it works remarkably well. Even the .310" balls are accurate at card table distance. I'm trying the 0.315" balls for the first time.

The 38s are factory 145 grain 38 S&W with the smokeless replaced with black powder. Bullets are powder coated and have no grease groove. So I'll have to swab probably after each single action shot. Same with the 32 round ball loads. No place for grease.

The 44 DA were also factory 200 grain 44 Russian smokeless loads. I pulled the bullets and replaced the miniscule amount of smokeless with a little over 20 grains of black powder. I melted out the factory petroleum based grease and replaced it with a bees wax/olive oil mixed stiff. The grease groove are nowhere big enough. I suspect it will be 'snappy'.

The goal for this afternoon is to function test the 32, 38, and 44 DAs and return to the range tomorrow to continue.

 

[Johnm1]

What I learned yesterday is that I need to get appropriate projectiles. The powder coated 38 bullets foul almost instantly. Same with the 32 round ball. Neither have any grease and really need to be swabbed after each shot. The 44 DA with its bullet greased tends to make it through 5 shots. But the barrel fouls very quickly with such a small grease groove.

Partial results. All targets are at 11 yards.

38 DA





32 Single action



44 DA



I forgot the 32 DA and have a little work to do on the Meriden this morning.

 

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Johnm1,

I've been shooting Black MZ in my conversion revolvers with no lube, and no issues.
Of course Aliant discontinued the Black MZ, but one can still get
Shooters World Multi Purpose Black or American Pioneer Powder.
You might want to give them a try.

AntiqueSledMan.

 

[Johnm1]

Hello Johnm1,

I've been shooting Black MZ in my conversion revolvers with no lube, and no issues.
Of course Aliant discontinued the Black MZ, but one can still get
Shooters World Multi Purpose Black or American Pioneer Powder.
You might want to give them a try.

AntiqueSledMan.

Worth a try. I thought APP was also discontinued. I had never heard of All Purpose black. But I'll research them.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think I would go to a substitute powder.
Or maybe Driftwood Johnson knows of well lubed bullets in the small calibers.

What did the old timers do? Pictures I have seen of pulled bullets don't show a whole lot of lube, some have wax wads.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Perhaps, since powder capacity isn't an issue, would be a thin over powder cardboard wad, then a fairly stiff grease/bee's wax cookie. ? Be a shame to use fake black powder, might as well just use smokeless, or trail boss if one was going to do that. 4fg may also foul a bit less.

 

[Johnm1]

I think I would go to a substitute powder.
Or maybe Driftwood Johnson knows of well lubed bullets in the small calibers.

What did the old timers do? Pictures I have seen of pulled bullets don't show a whole lot of lube, some have wax wads.

I am going to see what the availability is of the substitute powders. I'd prefer to just buy them. The guy @Driftwood Johnson used to buy the Big Lube bullets from has stopped selling them. He had a great assortment. What I can do now is buy the molds. Something ive resisted for a while now.

I think the right answer is the right bullet with a grease groove that is big enough for the proper amount of lube.

Perhaps, since powder capacity isn't an issue, would be a thin over powder cardboard wad, then a fairly stiff grease/bee's wax cookie. ? Be a shame to use fake black powder, might as well just use smokeless, or trail boss if one was going to do that. 4fg may also foul a bit less.

I have tried that witth the H&A XL8 44-40 and it can work. Sort of. In my testing with lighter loads I reduced the powder charge , placed a cardboard then a fiber wad with lube in it and in some had to add cornmeal to fill the space. I pulled one earlier this week just to see what the heat did to the powder below and there was some leakage.

The cardboard wad would have to seal 100%. Consider it was 108 degrees here today. Do they male a lube that stays solid up to 200 degrees? Straight bees wax melts at 145 degrees. That would make it if I didn't have to travel/store it.

 

[Johnm1]

EDIT: I tried to access the videos from another device. Apparently the links to the video(s) don’t work. I’ll try to fix that later today.

Well my videos are no better than my photographs, but here are some short vids of the above revolvers. Plus, these videos uploaded differently than previous videos. I can click the link and see the video. But I'm never sure if that's because I created it and others can't view it. I'm not normally technology challenged. Let me know if the links don't work. You should not need a password. (EDIT: I think I fixed it)

S&W 32 Double Action

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xeMNFPBASHhH1PnE8

S&W 38 Double Action

https://photos.app.goo.gl/36iJjgbqjmUrpsxK8

S$W 44 Double Action

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xrTmYneJizdqZKdf8

Meriden 'The Aubry' 32 DAO

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Yjr2kcDatDay3LDY6

I still have some work to do on the Meriden. The new firing pin appears to hang up on the return spring.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Do they male a lube that stays solid up to 200 degrees? Straight bees wax melts at 145 degrees. That would make it if I didn't have to travel/store it.

I have taken Wonder Wads, and dipped them in hot melted, pure bee's wax. Those seem to work okay in a cap-n-ball revolver. I think they would work in a cartridge fine, but 200 degrees is kind of over the top. But yeah, the heat you are talking about is...wait for it...HOT! I imagine the air is pretty dry there, which will make fouling worse.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I think I heard somebody call my name.

Yes, I use Big Lube Bullets for all my Black Powder cartridges.

Yes, the guy I used to buy them from has retired, but the latest I heard is that somebody else will be picking up the ball soon.

I have two S&W 44 Double Actions. I don't know what caliber yours is, but the most common cartridge this model was chambered for was 44 Russian.






These are the components I put into my 44 Russian ammo. Starline 44 Russian brass, Federal Large Pistol primer, Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullet sized to .428, and approx 17.7 grains of Schuetzen FFg. Yes, that is a Big Lube bullet. Notice I have pictured it both with and without the huge lube groove filled with lube.






I don't shoot the 44 Double Actions much, but I shoot the same 44 Russian cartridge in this pair of S&W New Model Number Threes. I usually take them to a CAS match once a year. With my 44 Russian ammo loaded with Big Lube bullets I can get through an entire match with these pistols, usually 30 rounds for each one, without any cleaning, swabbing, or binding. You should be able to do the same with your 44 Double Action if you can find some Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullets. Notice in this photo the pistols are still sooty after the end of a match. I have not cleaned them yet.






Most of my Black Powder cartridge shooting is with large calibers, such as 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40. I use Big Lube bullets in all of those cartridges, and can shoot all day long without any binding, swabbing, or cleaning between cylinders full.



I did load up some 38 S&W (not 38 Special) a few years ago for this Smith and Wesson Perfected revolver. I probably could have shot it with light Smokeless loads, but I did not want to do that.






Instead, I loaded my cartridges with American Pioneer Powder (APP). This is a BP substitute that does not need special Black Powder bullet lube and can be used with Smokeless bullets.






I used these bullets. Although 38 S&W bullets should nominally be .380 in diameter, these .359 bullets worked fine. My loading notebook says I loaded approx 7.3 grains of APP under the 100 grain bullets. It was quite a while ago, but that was probably enough powder that the bullet would just touch the top of the powder, without leaving any air space.






Sorry, can't help you with 32 S&W loaded with Black Powder. I have a few antiques chambered for it, but I have never fired them. If I wanted to I would probably load up some rounds with APP and Smokeless bullets.

Be a shame to use fake black powder, might as well just use smokeless, or trail boss if one was going to do that.

Trail Boss IS NOT a Black Powder Substitute. It generates a sharp pressure spike not much different than most other Smokeless powders. I would NEVER fire cartridges loaded with Trail Boss in any of my antique revolvers.

 

[Johnm1]

200 degrees is kind of over the top.

Not if they are in your truck for 4 hours in July! At home or at the range straight bees wax with a melting point of 145 degrees would work. It’s the other times that need the higher melting point.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Trail Boss IS NOT a Black Powder Substitute. It generates a sharp pressure spike not much different than most other Smokeless powders. I would NEVER fire cartridges loaded with Trail Boss in any of my antique revolvers.

Nor would I. That was kind of my point.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Not if they are in your truck for 4 hours in July! At home or at the range straight bees wax with a melting point of 145 degrees would work. It’s the other times that need the higher melting point.

Put 'em in a cooler with block of ice? Or would that not last the 4 hours?

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

It might but this is Arizona.... burn baby burn!

 

[Johnm1]

Put 'em in a cooler with block of ice? Or would that not last the 4 hours?

I've done the cooler thing back when I shot high power. But it only needed to be cool when I shot it. I guess not very different. Could straight bees wax be used? Would one compress the powder first, cap with bees wax and rhen seat the bullet?

I picked 200 degrees because vehicles generally reach 160 degrees in the summer. So maybe a little high for a threshold.

 

[Jim Watson]

Trail Boss IS NOT a Black Powder Substitute. It generates a sharp pressure spike not much different than most other Smokeless powders. I would NEVER fire cartridges loaded with Trail Boss in any of my antique revolvers.

Right. Trail Boss is a fast powder between, say Green Dot and AA#2; just made bulky and "fluffy" for good case fill in revolver cases but at typical smokeless pressures. I get nervous when somebody talks about loading .45-70 with TB.

 

[Johnm1]

I’m going to change my position on using a round ball in the 32 S$W loads. Although I can add grease in the front of the cylinder, like a cap and ball revolver, to address the fouling issue, the load is so light that every round the primer backs out. It doesn’t often back out enough to tie up the cylinder but t does occasionally.

So in my quest for proper projectiles for the 44 and 38 DAs, I’ll search for a proper 32 caliber projectile.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

If your primers are backing out you are not generating enough pressure for the cartridge to slam back and reseat the primer.

I suggest for 32 you use standard 32S&W bullets, and a full case of APP.

 

[Johnm1]

you are not generating enough pressure for the cartridge to slam back and reseat the primer.

That’s what I figured. Thanks.

I suggest for 32 you use standard 32S&W bullets

That is the plan. Now to find them.

 

[Jim Watson]

https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/cb-32-78-gr-rn-per-500.html?category_id=10

https://www.mattsbullets.com/90-grain-round-nose-312.html

 

[Dave T]

John,

When I go out in this weather to shoot BP cartridge I make sure my ammo is stored nose down. I also keep the BP ammo in the cab of my truck (A/C) for the 25 minute trip to the range and I make sure to keep guns and ammo in the shade while I'm there. I'm headed to Rio Salado in about an hour with 130 rounds of 45 Colt BP ammo. I don't expect any trouble with melting SPG lube in the Big Lube bullets I shoot.

Dave

PS: I don't do Google so I couldn't see your videos. Where are you shooting BP cartridge in the Mesa area? With the fire restrictions on Federal land Rio Salado is the only place I know to go.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I have been shooting cartridges loaded with Black Powder for many years now.

With bullets lubed with SPG or similar lubes.

During the summer the temperature gets into the 90s.

Yes, my ammo is stored bullet down in my plastic ammo boxes.

But I have never felt the need to keep my ammo cool, the lube stays in the lube groove of the Big Lube bullets, it does not migrate towards the powder.

They always go boom, I have never experienced a squib or any light loads.

This photo shows a 44-40 round on the left and a 45 Colt round on the right. Next to each round is the appropriate Big Lube bullet. I have removed the lube from one of each of the bullets to show how huge the lube groove is. The lube stays put in the lube groove, it does not migrate, even after several hours during a CAS match on a hot day.

 

[Navy Six 2]

How much shooting do you intend in one session? I have been loading 32 S&W and 38 S&W for several years using either Swiss 3F or Olde Enysford 3F in S&W breaktops. I usually order a mold for any caliber I own, but with these two I just order commercial bullets and remove existing lube and replace it with something black powder compatible. Any bullets for these calibers don't have much lube capacity anyway. After a couple cylinders I might run a wet patch down the barrel. Since these guns are so old I don't want to run a lot of rounds through them, just make sure they are sound enough to use occasionally. As for the powder, at their age I feel they deserve the real black powder they were designed for.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Not that I do much of it, but when I loaded BP .32 S&W for my Model 1-1/2 Single Action, I used bullets cast in this antique Ideal reloading tool's mold, which have a small grease groove. IIRC, I used a home made mix of beeswax and mutton tallow, approximately 50/50.

My powder charge was 0.3cc of 3Fg Old Eynsford black powder which in modern, solid head cases is a full charge with some compression. That 4.8 to 5 grains of powder. Accuracy was good enough to consistently bang a ~8" gong from about 5 yards.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Right. Trail Boss is a fast powder between, say Green Dot and AA#2; just made bulky and "fluffy" for good case fill in revolver cases but at typical smokeless pressures. I get nervous when somebody talks about loading .45-70 with TB.

WAIT! WAIT!!! I never said Trail Boss was a black powder substitute, or suggested using it volume for volume. I was trying to say, and apparently badly, that if one is going to start USING fake black powder, one might as well USE smokeless (in appropriate amounts) as the fake powders are not black powder anymore than smokeless is. I meant to say that I would not use smokeless "such as" Trail Boss OR black powder "substitutes". !!!! But that's okay, my bad, I wasn't very clear. I do know that TB is NOT one of the fake black powder substitutes. I learned that in first grade. !!!!!!!